Path of Exile or Path of progressively one-dimensional playstyle? A history lesson
" I don't actually think it is designed like this. However you have a lot of elements to pick from. Imagine it as a burger. You have cheese, meat, salad, the bun and a sauce, that are many compoments, even if the best component in each of those categories is just slightly better than the others, making a burger only with the best ingredients will result in a burger that is a lot better than one using only the second best ingredients. The issue here is that a whenever you reevaluate balance you are actually doing the worst you can do from a business perspective, because even though it is obviously not good, most people like it and hate it when you nerf their OP things, see CoC, which in difference to the lab actually hurt the game, so unless you instantly make those changes, which is often hard given the complexity and some of the OP things only show up a while after being implemented. " Again that is not really fixable just instantly. And there is the acknowledgement that it is an issue, however fixing it is a whole other issue and I haven't seen any suggestion here that would do the trick without introducing a lot of new issues. The thing I do mind though is that there is not a lot of talk, they did speak about it in a few interviews but it is actually something that should be worth a proper discussion. " It would be more something tanks had in WoW, which buffed their self heal based on the damage they took in the last seconds. Because if you go for big hits, Blade Flurry doesn't have big hits, it just has a shitton of mediocre ones, fireball has big hits. They should just change boss fights and make them more attrition based, they should deal a bit less spiky damage but have a shitton of more HP and maybe even a bigger loot share. " Might as well blame Obama :> When you make the decision to port a game to console you do so because the game is well received it wouldn't make any sense to change the game, because this would mean they assume they can instantly get a higher number of players their. Thing is the strategic slow gameplay isn't all that popular in general, at least not for an ARPG. And having fast paced combat isn't even bad, just that they got into a point were it isn't actually all that fast considering actual decision making. The mess that is around now mainly is based on the fact that they build new systems on other systems that already were very shaky to begin with. Double Dipping is a good example, it is in the game since literally forever and while it always was edgy, the ability to have a stacking debuff made it all the more obvious and on top of that we got a lot more multipliers as supports and such. " I don't think trash mobs should be buffed, because they are called like that for a reason, but for bosses it is definitly an option, actually some of the breach lords are incredible cool to fight against, because they are actually durable. Of course I'm playing one of those OP builds, but considering that with FB totems I at least have to dodge them because I cannot leech any life I enjoy them. Xoph is exspecially good, because feel like I did a mistake when I die. Of course you cannot just increase HP and be done with it. Some spiky damage combos have to go, because you cannot expect to never get hit by such a thing and something I would also like is having a few more meaningful encounters outside of the map boss, but having longer encounters, is an option. Exiles as a good example often just die without me even noticing me, such enemies should have more HP and actually provide another slight relief from murdering trash mobs in maps. |
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"I disagree. Tangentially, I'm very critical of the console port; I'm not defending it. Input devices matter, and I think any action (role-playing) game should be built significantly differently based on whether the players are using mice or using console controllers. With separate servers, separate monster tuning, separate telegraph times, okay, but off the same core build? No way. (I'm okay with a game tuning for console controllers while allowing mouse input if, and only if, it supports AND strongly recommends a controller as a PC input device; however, this makes the genuine gaming experience more expensive for most PC users.) However, it's plain to see that the principles I have discussed in this thread are not applied in PoE consistently, regardless of input device. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jan 24, 2017, 11:06:05 AM
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I will write down what i think GGG should do in order to fix this DPS oriented META. There will be nothing new for a lot of pepole here, because most of them are obvious facts to the players present in this topic. But i will still do it, because i love this game even though it is gone a little too far from what it was few years ago. Even if nobody reads it, or take it seriously i feel obligated to do so. Keeping a good topic like this alive is the most i can do for this game.
Things to do: 1. fixing HP/ES (EHP) balance: I dont think this point needs too much explanation. Look at the statistics, meta-builds, Poe-trade prices and you can conclude that it must be done. This problem kills build-divesity, and trading (life items worth nothing, high ES items costs a fortune). It gives even you GGG a hard time to make balanced content for all the players out there. Some of the content is just not doable with life builds or they have to sacrefice a lot more. 2. Defense: Come on guys, you put a lot of effort creating all these defense types. Are you not sad to see, that none of them is used or utilized? You spent a lot of time designing the system and the uniques. Cant you hear them cry from the long forgotten dusty cellar you exiled them to? They add flavor to the game, dont ignore them. Just step back a little, take your time watching the whole picture. No need to rush. Im not expecting a perfect answer for the problem right away, but i would be glad to see that you are willing. 3. Risk/reward: Do you know what i liked about this game GGG? The penalites. Yes, maybe im a little bit M, but that is not the point here. Power comes cheaply these days. Im sure you know, what im talking about. Dont give candies to children. Dont make items like: - Reach of the Council - Drillneck - Vessel of Vinktar - Taste of Hate - Starforge - ect. DONT GIVE FREE DAMAGE. It kills build diversity. Why? Im sure you know the term "best slots", because you nerfed Facebreaker. That tasty 90% crit mult in this DPS meta. Yummy. Did you create a lot of other unique gloves? Who cares? It is 90% crit mult dammit! Make penalties HURT again! (like real hard). 4. Movment skills: As far as i know there was a question about this topic in one of the developers inteview. You said you are not satisfied with the current system. Well, me neighter. Im glad you answered so honestly, thats why i love you guys. You know the flaws the game has, and try to adress those issues. Movment skills play a big role in the speedclear madness meta we are in right now. 5. Have the guts to nerf obviously OP builds: Same reason. Build-diversity. It will make your life easier when you are creating new content. There will always be haters. There will always be best builds. As a lot of pepole said before the power gap that matters. Thats all for now. Thanks for reading. Last edited by Motopsycho#5554 on Jan 24, 2017, 1:36:20 PM
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"No, the problem is that they've abandoned tactical gameplay. (Strategic isn't the right word.) As I've explained earlier in this thread, build customization gives ARPGs the unique opportunity to let players adjust the game around their own response times. This means ARPGs are uniquely position to offer, potentially, the fastest-paced action for the players with the best response times, as there is a compensating system to make the game playable for the majority of slower players. Are you implying tactical is inherently slow? The way I see it, it is only tactical gameplay which is relevant to pacing AT ALL. If one cannot respond to telegraphs which occur so quickly before actual events that there is insufficient time to respond, then there is no choice, which means there is no play. I don't think a game can claim "fast gameplay" when the actual choices players make happens at a slow clip, regardless of whether there's 8 million rapidly moving particle effects on the screen. Visual clutter and JJ Abrams explosions doesn't equal gameplay. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" the thing is - they are doing nothing. their recent 'changes' to ES were a TOTAL F.. JOKE. they either cater to the lowest denominator (ie people that need virtual success because their life lack one otherwise - very good target for grindy video games btw) on purpose or they simply have no idea what they are doing and what is going on with their own game you say it is bad from business perspective to nerf stuff? but you know what? they do that - randomly. without any plan nor vision. you know what is worse from business perspective than nerfs? being laughable. and poe balance at this moment is laughable. CI vs life is bordering insanity levels of 'not getting a grip'. melee vs ranged. meta skills. crap skills. i wanted to tell something good about this game to a coworker who is looking for one as he will spend some time at home due to surgery. and i ended up buying him grim dawn why? because when i told him about the passive tree, 50+ skills etc i just HAD to add that it makes a good impression but in reality just pick Vaal Pact, buy the ES gear and pick one of 2: poison or ignite and youll be fine. as long as the game has VALID choices that are 20 times worse (literaly!) than meta builds - it is no longer a game. it is a fun joke. i do not care if they talk alot about this stuff. it is cool that they talk. sad truth is - talk is cheap. and you can lie. issues like life vs CI are TWO YEARS+ old. CI was the best choice in open beta! this problem is this old. melee is crap since forever - in the older days it had its uses but now? people play it only after getting rich to do something else. there is no reason to play melee when Warchief Totem exists.. it is this silly. this totem is stronger than most melee builds you can create. and safer. currently there are just few ways of doing few selected things. all other - properly planned and executed - builds are CRAP BY DESIGN. 1h RT melee? CRAP. non-crit archer? CRAP. pretty much any life based build? CRAP compared to CI version. non double-dipping vs double-dipping? CRAP. you can do these CRAP builds. but tell me: WHY? 'fun' you say? cool. it is difficult to sustain maps and currency income for good items using 'fun'. game DOES NOT reward fun builds in any way. well, of you can roll white maps and have fun. i can do play crap builds in standard because i have more items than i need. but in leagues? anyone who starts with non-meta build can as well not start at all but why start a game with LOOSING it on the character selection screen? 'you can do EEEVERYTHING you want. but id strongly advise against using this, playing that, picking up this and in general avoid bottom-left part of the passive tree. and you are doing it wrong if your life globe is red. it should be white'. build diversity. and nothing, nothing has been done to fix so guys. never, ever be in a position when you are the ones who care the most. if ggg doesnt care - and nothing they DID (not said!) recently shows that they actually do - why should you? |
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" Kinda sad, but cant really argue with that. Adding melee tag to Ancestral Warchief and Blade Flurry was a really dumb idea. I dont really know what was the point there. Resurrecting melee with non-melee skills? Maybe pepole dont realize that they no longer need to sniff monsters armpits to do damage? (thanks for the definition raics, i laughed so hard.) They could have just added the melee tag randomly to any existing skills at this point. It was OP by default. Having these kind of "not that risky" melee skills along with items like Abyssus. Last edited by Motopsycho#5554 on Jan 24, 2017, 1:38:59 PM
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" Well said, unfortunately GGG doesn't seem to care enough about melee as in "sniff monster armpits to do damage" because everyone went for speed clearing and AoE above all, so the only way to still do melee, pigeon holed them into that compromise... I said it before, they could go with a double effectiveness on every true melee skill that "sniffs monster armpits to do damage", and still wouldn't feel broken comparing it to the AoE skills, as the situation is right now, those old school ideas have no use except for making you feel "special", and I don't mean it în a nice way - by the way, my main character is a dualwielding Dory RT Juggernaut with Static Strike so I know how it feels first hand... It is sad that we care as much, but for most, there will probably the moment to move on when the "fun" will dry out completly - probably post 3.0 if most the complains aren't adressed, we will all start to follow Charan and many others and rejoice more with the aRPG gems and look towards PoE with sadness seing so much wasted potential... PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"... Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days... Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Jan 24, 2017, 2:10:23 PM
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" All too true, but here's the thing from a Closed Beta perspective. Patch 3.0 is about to hit and I have one more character type left to explore. It costs nothing to give GGG this final chance to reshuffle the deck and try once more to come up with something memorable. GGG's track record is full of arbitrary and seemingly untested knee-jerk reactions, but some things do seem to stabilize over time. Take the skill tree, for example. It was wrought with schizophrenic drama all the way to Ascendancy, but since then it's settled into a usable ad hoc workhorse. The storyline has been streamlined into something not too tedious to revisit from time to time, and Zana-guided map progression is brisk, at least up to Tier 11. Where it gets ugly and unplayable is with the degenerate endgame excess: one-shot uber bosses, DPS uber alles, full-screen blinding aoe spam, and the whole clearspeed crackhead mentality. If that's what motivates you to grind into the 90's, you're welcome to it. To my eyes, it trivializes the game with meaningless, ego-boosting power creep. What I personally want out of the game is the challenge of facing overwhelming odds and pulling off death-defying coups de grace, using nothing but my own resources. You can still do that with this game, but it's funky and you have to forego all the meta bullshit. One saving grace is that by sheer dumb luck, there's a surplus of formerly OP legacy uniques, available dirt cheap in Standard and well-suited to the current state of the game in their own quirky ways. What you have to do, however, is literally level the playing field so you can appreciate the details of the environment and recognize what you're locking horns with. When you zoom the game down to ground level, your tactics must change dramatically to handle a limited, more realistic field of view. You can no longer indulge in a mind-numbing, facerolling cheese fest, plowing through braindead hordes at a breakneck pace, obliterating everything in your path from your omniscient bird's-eye view. If you try this at close range, you will blind yourself with an absurd clusterfuck of distracting visual effects that make it impossible to see enough of your foes to anticipate their upcoming attacks. This puts a natural damper on skill spamming and focuses your attention on combat tactics rather than gobbling up the booty. It actually feels more like fighting than farming. Most will likely scoff dismissively and say get a real first-person shooter. But there's something I still find magical about the old-school Diablo-style battlefield, with its fixed isometric POV, and modern 3D games break that spell every time you jerk your virtual head around. While PoE doesn't handle zoomed-in mode seamlessly in all cases, when it works it's mesmerizing, a completely different experience that defies everything you thought you knew about the game. |
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" You found them cool because power creep made everything melt instantly and essentialy made the rest of the game boring. So now GGG increased the HP pool to keep the meta builds busy with something, and screwing up the rest of the population. I tried those 3 elemental lords, I did kill all of them, but it took a long amount of time. Once I got the mechanics, it was kinda ok, but still took too much time :/ Such a design is terrible, it's aweful, those ways to cheese the game need to go, they need to be hit by the nerf hammer and burried 4375029348 feet under the ground and never ever been seen again. But I don't think it's happening, the point of no return has been reached, else they will piss off many players and I don't think that they want to do that. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading. Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Jan 24, 2017, 11:42:14 PM
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" I don't know why you would say that last part, unless you feel that noobtraps have a legitimate role to play in ARPGs? (I do not.) A poorly made character should fail, yes of course, but if your point of failure happens upon your choice of skill, before you've even begun to play--or, even worse, upon your choice of a class, on the character select screen--then something is seriously wrong. The illusion of choice, provided by a glut of useless gems, does not add to the game in any way, and in fact makes the game worse than if those gems did not even exist. Having a greater variety of viable skills (active gems), as well as a greater variety of viable loadouts (support gems), makes the game much more interesting and fun both for single-player and party-based play. And for that reason, Glacial Hammer needs another 6% buff, I think. " I think the solution is painful but simpler than we think: Strengthen the effectiveness of armor and evasion, and then make vaal pact and ghost reaver mutually exclusive. Adjust monster damage values as necessary. Bam. The life/ES balance is fixed AND defensive builds become viable again. Not sure if GGG has the balls to do it, but I expect we'll find out very, very soon. " I do not agree that it was a bad idea, considering the state of the game at that time. But its implementation and, more importantly, the ramifications of that implementation were not well considered. Wash your hands, Exile! Last edited by gibbousmoon#4656 on Jan 26, 2017, 12:34:18 AM
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