Commandment of Winter

You cant see my point and I disagree on with your point about self cast being better. I refuse to keep writing you books about your lack of investment and reliance on the pre nerf cwc scaling. Really doubt you could make a cheap build that casts lvl 28 fireballs with sustainable mana, pure damage non crit, the same or better ES value to my cwc CI build, and for the same build cost. CWC is not as good vs other nukers but I think its better vs tanks.

A rough calculation with your build for cwc vs self cast:

You said you have 114% fire pen, and I tested your damage, your single-proj non-overlapping damage was around 2k-4k each hit, I will use the 4000 average in this example, but any other number should bring us to the same conclusion.

For a 4k hit in pvp with cwc you need around 150 000 ingame tooltip average damage using 114% penetration against a 75% res target, and 1 second cast speed, reduced by scolds.

By the CWC proc rate on a lvl22-23 CWC gem you have 0.34 sec interval, so a 11764 average pvp dps.

Let's say for a test you only change the CWC support and blight for a spell echo and a faster casting gem, you respec several points on tree and stats on gear from damage into mana and mana regen to sustain the mana cost, you lose the 11% more damage from CWC, and receive 10% less damage penalty from spell echo, and end up with 100 000 average damage ingame tooltip, presumably more than that, but let's go with that for the example.

From echo and fc you will have 3.09 casts per second, or 0.32 cast time.

Based on the established new values, you will have 6446 average pvp damage, and 19941 average dps. Calculations made by my tool.

This respec is already conclusive enough to say CWC is clearly inferior to self-casting, even tho the respec is far from optimal, faster casting is not an optimal support gem, and no other cast speed investment was made at all, so winter damage is barely affected, and the dps difference can even get double of what cwc has with proper optimisation.

<insert typical i-told-you bragging here>

numbers are promising but even though CWC had won the damage comparison due to its fixed cast speed it doesn't provide good enough offscreening experience. while offscreening the last thing you want to happen is that the opponent breaching through the area you are covering in between the intervals of your casting/attacking time.

I think your math is off. You arent taking into consideration that I dont have cast speed on any of my weapons. Where are you getting the base cast speed to calculate self cast speed? Are you using 0% cast speed base? I would have to change my weapons too so you need to consider that I will sacrifice dps on my weapons since I got insanely high tier sambars for CWC and getting anything remotely close for self casting will be dramatically more expensive.

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GrindcoreTHRALL wrote:

I think your math is off. You arent taking into consideration that I dont have cast speed on any of my weapons. Where are you getting the base cast speed to calculate self cast speed? Are you using 0% cast speed base? I would have to change my weapons too so you need to consider that I will sacrifice dps on my weapons since I got insanely high tier sambars for CWC and getting anything remotely close for self casting will be dramatically more expensive.

In cwc version the 0.85 base fireball cast time is modified only by scold to 0.9775, I used 1 for simplicity.

In self cast version I only used the 73% more cast speed from echo, and 52% cast speed from fc (both lvl23/20 in your chest) with the 0.85 sec base, no other cast speed on gear, just removed the scold reduction.

If your weapons are multimodded you can cheaply remod them with cast speed, and you are already far better dps than cwc, not min-maxed tho, but better.

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Rupenus wrote:

numbers are promising but even though CWC had won the damage comparison due to its fixed cast speed it doesn't provide good enough offscreening experience. while offscreening the last thing you want to happen is that the opponent breaching through the area you are covering in between the intervals of your casting/attacking time.

but cwc is no longer the hihger damage, that was my point...

and what do you mean it doesn't provide enough offscreening?

btw self cast also removes the drawback of cwc where you need to cast for full intervals for each successful proc, if you cast for 0.69 seconds with a 0.35 interval, you will only get 1 cast, but you almost casted for the time of 2 casts

and with global cast speed investment you will get far better light warp speed

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Márkusz wrote:

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GrindcoreTHRALL wrote:

I think your math is off. You arent taking into consideration that I dont have cast speed on any of my weapons. Where are you getting the base cast speed to calculate self cast speed? Are you using 0% cast speed base? I would have to change my weapons too so you need to consider that I will sacrifice dps on my weapons since I got insanely high tier sambars for CWC and getting anything remotely close for self casting will be dramatically more expensive.

In cwc version the 0.85 base fireball cast time is modified only by scold to 0.9775, I used 1 for simplicity.

In self cast version I only used the 73% more cast speed from echo, and 52% cast speed from fc (both lvl23/20 in your chest) with the 0.85 sec base, no other cast speed on gear, just removed the scold reduction.

If your weapons are multimodded you can cheaply remod them with cast speed, and you are already far better dps than cwc, not min-maxed tho, but better.

Ok but u did base the damage off what I was already doing with cwc. You have to take into account I use gem lvl 21 discipline, and anger. I cant take off discipline since I use skin of the loyal and the ES boost is over 30% of my total. I also use clarity and have a very small mana pool so 1 aura atleast must disappear which is either discipline or anger...

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GrindcoreTHRALL wrote:

Ok but u did base the damage off what I was already doing with cwc. You have to take into account I use gem lvl 21 discipline, and anger. I cant take off discipline since I use skin of the loyal and the ES boost is over 30% of my total. I also use clarity and have a very small mana pool so 1 aura atleast must disappear which is either discipline or anger...

You swap for a good hubris, that covers the loss for discipline, and your base damage still won't drop below 100k most likely, I tried to guess a worst case number in this calculation, it can be far better than this with min-maxing.

Ok but going cast speed on my scepters takes off crit or fire damage so that also affects the equation. Taking nodes off the tree for mana as well...switching to a hubris will be a huge loss in dps. At this point I really dont think its an effective comparison.

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Márkusz wrote:

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Rupenus wrote:

numbers are promising but even though CWC had won the damage comparison due to its fixed cast speed it doesn't provide good enough offscreening experience. while offscreening the last thing you want to happen is that the opponent breaching through the area you are covering in between the intervals of your casting/attacking time.

but cwc is no longer the hihger damage, that was my point...

and what do you mean it doesn't provide enough offscreening?

btw self cast also removes the drawback of cwc where you need to cast for full intervals for each successful proc, if you cast for 0.69 seconds with a 0.35 interval, you will only get 1 cast, but you almost casted for the time of 2 casts

and with global cast speed investment you will get far better light warp speed

i'm saying, CWC couldn't won the damage comparison and on top of that if you are covering an area where you fill the area with some kind of explosion and prevent the target getting close to you, you dont want the opponent to be able to breach through the aoe you cover. you need high cast/attack soeed for that. that is the main requirement of proper offscreening.