Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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morbo wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

The Lab is actually a very good "proving ground" for your build.

Ever tried it with a leech based LL or life/ES hybrid build which has no Armour and no physical %mitigation? You could argue that it is a very good "proving ground" for the players hip hop skills then. Certainly not for the build - unless you want to make a lab runner...

Is anyone forcing you to have no physical mitigation? Ever heard of Basalt or Granite flask?

I've done it with several hybrid builds, yes. And with pure EVA builds with crappy life pool (~4k). I've never played a LL build, because they are too expensive. But if you can afford a LL build, you can afford a properly rolled & qualitied Baslat / Granite. Maybe throw in some endurance charges, for Izaro fight? A chaos golem, perhaps?

The Lab will test your build (aka your ability to adapt) and yes, also your hand-eye coordination skills & reflexes.

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I was talking about your claim: "The Lab is actually a very good "proving ground" for your build." That is why I quoted it.

Nothing in your response indicates that this (the claim I quoted) is true. Quite the opposite. Just look at your wording. You write "(aka your ability to adapt)". Note the "your" which refers to the player. Not the build. So IMO you are strictly misleading here. Doing lab with arbitrary builds is a test for the player. Not for the build - barring lab runs obviously. In terms of "proving ground for the build" for any non-trap areas it (the lab) is somewhere between useless and misleading.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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morbo wrote:

The Lab is actually a very good "proving ground" for your build.

Ever tried it with a leech based LL or life/ES hybrid build which has no Armour and no physical %mitigation? You could argue that it is a very good "proving ground" for the players hip hop skills then. Certainly not for the build - unless you want to make a lab runner...

My main atm is a VP Berserker ( I did not have the warcray acsndancy until the last 2 points ).
I hade 3000 armors maybe back when I ran uber lab the first time, and it worked.
Had 4500 HP and 1000 ES I think.

No physical mitigation, no basalt.
Just a granit in the pocket, for Izaro.

Not sure what you are trying to say here? That you have the skills to do it? 4500HP + 1000 ES is still on the easy side though. It is just a little bit harder than pure life based.
The argument was not about whether it can be done or not. I even implied that it can be done.

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Fruz wrote:

Do it within big floor spikes tileset without thinking and you will rip.

They do less than zero damage (meaning you regen more than they do damage while being stuck in one) if you have strong armour and life regen.

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Fruz wrote:

Whirling blades is too strong against many traps, I hope that GGG will change that, whirling blade could get a movement penalty while taking damage, or just while hitting traps for example.

Fully disagree. WB is far more difficult to use in the lab than normal movement + phasing. From what I have read neither the speedrunners (normal movement) nor the Juggernauts (leap slam) use WB. I have used it myself (neither speed runner nor Jugger) but it is more of a crutch than an OP tool. Quartz + Quicksilver make for much faster runs. I dont have ungodly WB skills though. High speed movement + phasing is what makes it trivial as long as you know where you need to go and there is no blockade. WB helps neither with knowledge (where to go) nor with the blockades. The advantage of WB was for me mostly that I do not need the flasks and that I get fortify - but LS also gives that. If I would want to do lots more uber lab runs I would probably have made a setup with the flasks. WB is especially bad for getting through tight spaces with monsters blocking the way and also blocking the view - due to WB stopping at every tiny rock. The targeting with WB is also bad due to the click on monster == target monster mechanism.

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Fruz wrote:

And then there is Izaro, either a gear check or a skill check depending on how you do it.

Ok.

Edit: clarification: "proving ground" --> "proving ground for the build"

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torturo wrote:

I was mostly about the hand-eye coordination & reflexes statement.

Maybe I just expressed myself poorly.

What I meant is that you need to pay attention & time your movements. In genereal, if you are not playing a high regen tank, you can't just rush into traps. Longer trap gauntlets in Uber can be especially deadly.

Some Izaro stages require timed execution, while paying attention to his life state. The last fight requires you to pay attention to environment, not just the fight (I've ripped more times due to trap damage in last room, then Izaro himself). This requires awarness, not just reactive gameplay.

All this can be considered skill. People who say you can just QS through everything are lying or have only specific builds in mind.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Nothing in your response indicates that this (the claim I quoted) is true. Quite the opposite. Just look at your wording. You write "(aka your ability to adapt)". Note the "your" which refers to the player. Not the build. So IMO you are strictly misleading here. Doing lab with arbitrary builds is a test for the player. Not for the build - barring lab runs obviously. In terms of "proving ground for the build" for any non-trap areas it (the lab) is somewhere between useless and misleading.

How am I misleading? Gear & skills are part of the build, or not?

You, the player, should adapt your build for this particular fight. Including phys. mitigation in your build that otherwise lacks it, is part of this adaptation. There's various ways to do that: through skills, gear, flasks..

In the past (OB) when content was more difficult, it was normal to swap gear for different maps / boss fights (Temple, Crema, Atziri) - switch shield, switch gems, replace flasks, etc. Maybe because of power creep this is not needed anymore.

You just assume that your zero phys. mitigation build will faceroll everything? It looks like it doesnt work in the Lab, so you'll have to adapt the build.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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You just asked "every tried build *****" ( probably thinking that the people saying its doable with anything only use fotm build, idk ), so I tell you : YES.
Nothing more about that.


And whirling blade makes you ignore saw blades or some other very dangerous kind of traps.
A ridiculously high move speed is also something that can make it really easy of course.

I don't like cheesing the content usually, so I do it the "normal" way personally.

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morbo wrote:

Pick one:

* If the Lab is trivially easy, then it means you get lots of power for little investment, no reason to complain

The main issue I have with the labyrinth is that it is a different gameplay from the rest of PoE. A play style that is boring, irritating, tedious and not fun. It is trivially easy but I play the game for fun. I have every right to complain when they take a very fun game and stick horrible game play into the middle of it. I have a very good reason to complain because GGG took my favorite game of all time and inserted a huge chunk of content that is so bad it makes me not want to play.

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morbo wrote:

How am I misleading? Gear & skills are part of the build, or not?

You are misleading because your arguments include the player. The player is not part of a build. Your claim was: "The Lab is actually a very good "proving ground" for your build." That is what I disagree with. And I pointed it out because it obfuscates at least one of the main lab complaints.

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morbo wrote:

You just assume that your zero phys. mitigation build will faceroll everything? It looks like it doesnt work in the Lab, so you'll have to adapt the build.

I have in your previous response ignored the reference to me. I am not talking about me. I am talking about your quote. I do not need your tips for how to play the (uber) lab.
In terms of "assumptions": It is you who assumes (what kind of build I have). My build is not a "zero phys mitigation build". So your assumption is also wrong.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

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You just asked "every tried build *****" ( probably thinking that the people saying its doable with anything only use fotm build, idk ), so I tell you : YES.
Nothing more about that.

I dont know what you are trying to express here.

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Fruz wrote:

And whirling blade makes you ignore saw blades or some other very dangerous kind of traps.
A ridiculously high move speed is also something that can make it really easy of course.

You are right about WB being good to move through traps. But its not OP vs normal movement. You dont even need "ridiculously high" speed. IIRC sth like +150% move speed is enough to just run through almost any trap area barely taking damage as long as one is uninterrupted and knows (or guesses correctly) the exit/target location.

Edit: Regarding move speed: There is a qualitative difference between high movement speed and mediocre/low movement speed. With low/mediocre it is necessary to avoid "running with a trap" whereas with high movement speed one can completely ignore trap movement directions and "brainlessly" run through the trap area - barring hard obstacles and not finding the exit location.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I am not talking about me. I am talking about your quote. I do not need your tips for how to play the (uber) lab.
In terms of "assumptions": It is you who assumes (what kind of build I have). My build is not a "zero phys mitigation build". So your assumption is also wrong.

I dont care who are you talking about. You put out the example of "zero phys. mitigation build", as this is some proof that Lab is bad. It's the player's duty to adapt his build for better phys. mitigation in the Lab (or anywhere else), simple as that.

The Lab will test your build defenses, ofenses, mitigation as well as player's skill with movement / positioning, flask usage & manual mitigation. So I'm still standing behind my assertion that the Lab is a proving ground, for the build and yes, for the player too.

You (guys) might not like traps or occasional backtracking, but GGG did ascension right. Except the part where you can just buy a Lab carry and stand away from the fight.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I dont know what you are trying to express here.

I misstyped ( probably got auto-corrected wrongly and I did not notice, not sure ) "ever" for "every" :

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Zrevnur wrote:

Ever tried it with a leech based LL or life/ES hybrid build which has no Armour and no physical %mitigation? You could argue that it is a very good "proving ground" for the players hip hop skills then. Certainly not for the build - unless you want to make a lab runner...

=> yes

This was your own question, and I answered to it ....
I quoted you the first time too.

I cannot make it more clear I think.


And +150% move speed is already ridiculously high, honestly.
Maybe something could be done about that. from GGG .....
Diminishing returns maybe ?

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morbo wrote:

In the past (OB) when content was more difficult, it was normal to swap gear for different maps / boss fights (Temple, Crema, Atziri) - switch shield, switch gems, replace flasks, etc. Maybe because of power creep this is not needed anymore..

I'd almost forgotten this. I remember the first Atziri runners would bring in a permanent curser when hex master meant curses never expire and before the different bossfights they'd respec a nontrivial amount of passive nodes.

I honestly don't inderstand the complaint that the lab is too easy and boring. If it's so easy and boring, you would spend far less time actually doing the lab than making forum posts about how boring it is. It seems like a hollow argument to me. Just a made up justification for hating the lab that is supposed to sound more noble and logical than the real reason for the hate.

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mark1030 wrote:

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morbo wrote:

In the past (OB) when content was more difficult, it was normal to swap gear for different maps / boss fights (Temple, Crema, Atziri) - switch shield, switch gems, replace flasks, etc. Maybe because of power creep this is not needed anymore..

I'd almost forgotten this. I remember the first Atziri runners would bring in a permanent curser when hex master meant curses never expire and before the different bossfights they'd respec a nontrivial amount of passive nodes.

I honestly don't inderstand the complaint that the lab is too easy and boring. If it's so easy and boring, you would spend far less time actually doing the lab than making forum posts about how boring it is. It seems like a hollow argument to me. Just a made up justification for hating the lab that is supposed to sound more noble and logical than the real reason for the hate.

People that "dislike the lab" don't dislike it for logical reasons, they dislike it because its something they have to "go out of their way to do"