Lab is [Removed by Support]- some answers and feedback

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The_Reporter wrote:

I want to see where you've seen tons of people dying in lab carries.

I am also slightly curious...

Anyway the carrier can help a lot with traps by being a specialized support build, staying near the customer, blocking darts with self/totem/fw, loaning anti-lab equipment before the run, etc. My guess is that most carriers do not however use such a build and do not loan anything.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

I want to see where you've seen tons of people dying in lab carries.

I am also slightly curious...

Anyway the carrier can help a lot with traps by being a specialized support build, staying near the customer, blocking darts with self/totem/fw, loaning anti-lab equipment before the run, etc. My guess is that most carriers do not however use such a build and do not loan anything.

This was back in perandus when the lab was new and perhaps players didn't know how to avoid the traps that well. But my friend made an absolute killing just doing lab rushes in merciless for 5c each, wait until full party and then go ham on the challenge. They paid before the end and if they died to traps, not his problem.

I don't know of a single lab carry that goes out of his way to do those things for you, you are responsible for navigating the traps, aka following and he is responsible for doing the boss.

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The_Reporter wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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The_Reporter wrote:

The runner gets the keys, opens doors and pulls levers for the customer. The payer barely needs to go through traps at all.

But there is still risk involved for the player that pays for the run, unlike literally every other aspect of the game where you pay for a carry.

The risk is smaller than facing normal Vaal construct solo. Hop over 3 or 4 traps, then wait in the garden while your overleveled carrier one-shots Itzaro.

Not so much risk, man. Come on.

Well every room has a gauntlet you usually have to go through. Only Firetraps are usually passable by switches, almost all Sawblades, Mace Pillars, Spikes or whatever those discs are setups are not passable with a door. I also assume that the Burning Floor kills the least people, since it is the most predictable one and a ruby flask can greatly prolong the amount of time you can spend on it. All the other traps that are actually dangerous (not too much, but more than the fire one) are far harder to pass... of course unless you have LW but then you can do that alone anyway.

There isn't also so much reason to pay for a carry for 3 Izaros, since you can outlevel them easily and at least for 2 of them it is quite trivial. I would never pay for a normal or cruel carry. It is a whole different thing for Malachai, since he actually blocks my way.

So what you are basicly saying is that traps aren't really hard to get past anyway only Izaro is and you can pay for a carry there... so where exactly is the issue then? Because that is how the rest of the game is as well and that isn't exactly an argument against the lab.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well every room has a gauntlet you usually have to go through. Only Firetraps are usually passable by switches, almost all Sawblades, Mace Pillars, Spikes or whatever those discs are setups are not passable with a door.

At least in the uber lab one of the worst sequences with phys traps (and also some of the easier ones) has dead ends with levers which need to be activated before passing through. If the carrier activates the levers it is much easier to get through in one go (limited basalt+quicksilver).

Edit: typo

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Fruz wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

As melee-friendly? Still no.

Yes as melee friendly.

I mean, the room is not that big, and staying close to the boss reduces your chances of walking on traps, that's one for melees.
If you go through Izaro ( meaning that you are very close ), you can easily dodge the big slash also.
This boss has a big very painfull range attack, and a big charge to close the gap, it is not range "friendly".
I can understand why some might think it's better for melee, I think it's about the same personally.
We have a content that does not shit on melees much more than it shits on range, that's a nice change.

It says something interesting psychologically that people can identify content as "about the same" for melee and ranged, and label it as melee friendly. I guess melee is so used to getting brutally fucked that when we run into content which doesn't take an interest in melee's orifices, it's a "friend." As if a custom of antipathy makes apathy a virtue.

You can nitpick for slightly to either side of it, but Izaro is essentially melee neutral. Neutral isn't friendly. And to point to this one instance of near-neutrality and act as if this in any way compensates for the brutal imbalance which melee suffers, to act as if a very temporary lack of bias is somehow a gift, is quite deluded.

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The_Reporter wrote:

@ Emphasy

Now you're getting it.

The area itself is not good. dead ends, confusion, boring, poorly optimized and frustrating (not in a difficult way).

I'm not asking that GGG changes anything. I'm asking they make a much more difficult, enjoyable true test OPTIONAL way to gain ascendancy points WITH NO POT OF GOLD or ENCHANTS at the end. I'm certain they'd be able to cobble something together from existing assets, or just use an existing encounter.

Dead ends are avoidable, you have a map in each zone\next to each door. Boring is really not valid in this discussion, people view leveling as boring and want ways to expedite that as well, doesn't have anything to really do with content, its just a personal opinion. Optimized, only one zone has issues and I don't think it still has issues with the new threading performance.


You literally asked for it to be added to malachai before, what exactly are you wanting now?

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The_Reporter wrote:

@ Emphasy

Now you're getting it.

The area itself is not good. dead ends, confusion, boring, poorly optimized and frustrating (not in a difficult way).

I'm not asking that GGG changes anything. I'm asking they make a much more difficult, enjoyable true test OPTIONAL way to gain ascendancy points WITH NO POT OF GOLD or ENCHANTS at the end. I'm certain they'd be able to cobble something together from existing assets, or just use an existing encounter.

Well the layout of the lab isn't any different than those of other areas. And if you dislike it, you can easily avoid running into sideareas... they aren't technically dead ends, because they have a purpose, but most people don't care about them, but then again look up the lab.

They could force people to enter the room with Izaro, but that wouldn't make it that much harder. Not to mention like I said before, that 2 of the Izaros are easy to outlevel and a lvl85 char shouldn't have issues with Merc Izaro either, so technically you can outlevel all 3 of the "mandatory" izaros.

But this argument is the one why there are no changes needed. People that enjoy the lab can run it and have fun, and I usually like to do a run every once in a while, although I did more of them in Perandus then I did in Prophecy and I assume the Atlas will also pull me away from the Lab, just because there are new things to do.

If you don't like the lab either outlevel 2 of them and buy a carry for the third or just look up the layout and run through it quickly. There are a lot of easy ways to pass the lab and Merc Izaro isn't that hard to begin with. So overall I don't really see many issues here. It could be seen as an issue in general that you can buy even the hardest challanges, and this actually was far more discussed when there was an actual challange behind it that gave real rewards (I think it was when Atziri was implemented, not sure).

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It says something interesting psychologically that people can identify content as "about the same" for melee and ranged, and label it as melee friendly. I guess melee is so used to getting brutally fucked that when we run into content which doesn't take an interest in melee's orifices, it's a "friend." As if a custom of antipathy makes apathy a virtue.

You can nitpick for slightly to either side of it, but Izaro is essentially melee neutral. Neutral isn't friendly. And to point to this one instance of near-neutrality and act as if this in any way compensates for the brutal imbalance which melee suffers, to act as if a very temporary lack of bias is somehow a gift, is quite deluded.

Yeah, this is kinda what I meant.
The fact that ranges do need to get closer to danger ( aka traps ) where they often shoot everything from as far as possible might also reinforce this feeling.

On the other hand, uber traps do shit on melees .....

One of the biggest issues is people crashing inside the lab especially uber where you then lose the run. This induces rage quit scenarios where people will avoid the game for long periods. This happens also in hardcore when people die and other such scenarios. The labyrinth is just the worst example of it. People on these rage quits then join the forums and vent their frustrations. Path of Exile needs to get their technical issues solved in all areas of the game to really push the game to the top. Some builds are completely unplayable because of how they interact with the game engine with visual effects or calculations. This is entire unacceptable now. GGG is out of the realm of new company. These types of issues are not for a game out this many years. GGG needs to step it up and get the technical issues out of the way.