Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support DONE!!!!!

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Turtledove wrote:

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dandyandy wrote:

I'm a lab hatter as well.

Not only did they add uber lab, but included labs to the prophecies. Ya, you can seal them, and waist all your coins on that. I truly believe ggg has lost many players because of the lab. That's only my opinion.. We have a small guild, six of us use to play quite frequently, 5 to 6 nights a week. When the lab was introduced, 2 of our guildies quit playing poe. Prophecy came out, added uber lab, and shoved more lab down our throat with prophecies. Well there goes the rest of the guild, off to other games. I really can't blame them, I dont think i'll stay much longer. Don't get me wrong, I think poe was the best rpg ever (before the lab). The lab just seems to frustrate some people, myself included. Maybe because it's because our guild consisted of old farts, like 50 years old or so. Why play a game that now frustrates you. Make a long story short, I'm the only one left playing, the others 5 refused to play because of the lab. But that's only our guild, maybe others are enjoying the lab and growing their guild, who knows.

I don't think ggg will be making any changes, at this point, to far in. Well, all good things must come to an end, i guess. Best of luck to all.

Check back in for release 2.4. Maybe around September? If not, then I'll be joining you.

Do you promise?

My philosophy is to not promise Internet trolls anything since there is no reason.

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IceDeal wrote:

You knows what other threads were supposed to pop until the end of time, threads about premium tabs beeing pay to win. GGG ignored them entirely and eventually people moved on.

How do you know GGG ignored them? They just STARTED to change the trade system. Do you think it will now stay like this? Maybe GGG is already working to improve trade even more, making it also more accessable to those without prem stash tabs.

Also: The problem with the prem stash tab discussion was, that there are free solutions (poe procurement or manually setting up a forum post). So you can't call it pay2win anyway if everyone has access to the option to sell stuff in poe.trade.

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IceDeal wrote:

I expect them to do exactly the same thing with those ones and maybe after a while (who knows how long tho, you guys seems extremely persistent, may I suggest to get another hobby ?) the same thing will happen.

Spoiler

And it WILL happen

Lol. I'm registered in this forum for many years by now and MANY discussions have led to changes in the game.

I participated in the following threads:

- free4all vs. perm allocated loot -> GGG added perm allocation as an option
- Chaos Inoculation needs a buff -> GGG added max ES nodes behind CI
- Many threads regarding balancechanges (boss difficulty) and content (strength of uniques) -> GGG listened to the community and fixed stuff

So while SOME things never get changed, other things do get changed from GGG. It's only a matter of:

- Are the complaints justified?
- Do the statistical numbers tell us anything?
- How difficult is the change for us?
- Will it really improve the gameplay experience?

If the complaints are justified (because people gave good reasons) and if the numbers tell (for example), that the playbaser is shrinking since the introduction of the content, then GGG has to think about if a change to the content is actually possible and if that change will really improve the gameplay experience.

So no, I dont agree with you that all these complaints are for nothing. If lab is a serious issue and many people share that opinion, GGG has to at least consider that a change might help the game. And since we are not asking for a small thing (adding an alternative way to get AC points takes time) it's not like they can implement a change within a week. They simultaniously have to work on other stuff: This league, next leagues, new uniques, balancing etc.

Honestly, I'm just waiting for 2.4 to see if the game will be worth playing again. Right now it doesn't feel like it is, especially since Warframe just released a huge update, have another one coming shortly, and they've been working their asses off on hotfixes to address issues that came with the recent update. They have also been very communicative with the community, and actively use player feedback to drive decisions going forward in a very transparent way.

Guess what GGG is not doing? Any of the above.

I'm not saying that GGG aren't working at all, but everything they do is behind a screen of "We can't talk about it because 'derp, expectations.'" You know how DE handles that issue? They set the expectations for the players, and the surprises that do come out are always pleasant ones like, "Hey, check out these awesome new features we decided to throw on melee weapons (alternate holstering animations and new stances) just because it's awesome!"

When Chris says something like, "This is something we would like to do, but currently it's just an idea..." we can know that he's not promising anything. He's only saying that to let us know that they are excited about introducing new stuff to the game. As players, we're usually excited for it too. When GGG is completely silent on their own forums--except for the Thought Police that don't like us showing how many people actually hate the Lab under the excuse that the threads are redundant--players tend to get bitter and resentful.

You know what would be an awesome move from GGG? Have them create a post of "The state of the Labyrinth, and our plans going forward," or a stream to similar effect. Take a page from Warframe, and be more open and honest with us. Check this video out and tell me you wouldn't love something similar from GGG.

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I participated in the following threads:

- free4all vs. perm allocated loot -> GGG added perm allocation as an option
- Chaos Inoculation needs a buff -> GGG added max ES nodes behind CI
- Many threads regarding balancechanges (boss difficulty) and content (strength of uniques) -> GGG listened to the community and fixed stuff

Well honestly I wouldn't count these, they are hugely different. Despite players often disagreeing with balance decisions there are a whole lot more decisions they agree on. So GGG very likely had a similar idea about balance as the players did. They didn't buff CI because players wanted it, they buffed it because it was underused and felt weak. And it is to be expected that if something actually is weak that players and GGG notice this alike.

The Free4all thing was a very slim change and they basically said from the beginning that they want their system but they won't push it at all costs, they just didn't want people to doom it from the start without playing at all. But a lot of situations caused issues with the system (like zombies spreading tar on death not allowing a ranged char to get as quick to the loot as a melee). Which ultimately lead to them changing the system, which technically only required a second for them (since perm. allocation could be temp. allocation with just a few zeros added to the time they items are allocated, so if you wait a few years the item might become free4all amd actual free4all is just temp. allocation with the time until the loot is free set to 0. So these changes required not much effort.

But they changed it because they wanted it, they had something in mind with their system, it didn't work out so they changed it, but they gave it some time. But there are a lot of debates, which are still going, were the opposite is the true. They very likely will keep the death penalty, they will very likely keep high end maps gated etc.

So considering the time they invested in the lab and the time it would need to create an alternate way to get ascendancies I doubt something will happen before 3.0. They will likely make continous adjustments to the lab, which is normal, and usually such content gets easier over time (just remember the vaal sideareas when they were implemented, those bosses were terrifying), but at the same time also often gets less rewarding.

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If the complaints are justified (because people gave good reasons) and if the numbers tell (for example), that the playbaser is shrinking since the introduction of the content, then GGG has to think about if a change to the content is actually possible and if that change will really improve the gameplay experience.

The thing is, they did give out some numbers. And I have no reason to believe they are lying when they say that there playerbase has grown from perandus to prophecy. But since the lab is not the only change others might simply outweight it, which would still mean that for most players the lab is not the deciding factor for playing or not playing the game, which is very likely. A lot of things in the game are disliked or liked from different players but most of those things don't influence their decision to play much.

An important thing about the lab is that it is not frustrating gameplay. It is very easy to outlevel two of the labyrinths and if you don't enjoy them look up the layout online and be done with it in often less then 15 minutes. The only labyrinth that has the potential to frustrate players is the merciless one, but at this point your build should come together you have much more tools and the merciless lab has a very fair difficulty and some might actually feel it more enjoyable than the earlier labs.

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You know what would be an awesome move from GGG? Have them create a post of "The state of the Labyrinth, and our plans going forward," or a stream to similar effect. Take a page from Warframe, and be more open and honest with us. Check this video out and tell me you wouldn't love something similar from GGG.

They can't say much about labyrinth plans because they have none. They will make technical and balance adjustments like for any other part of the game. But I think in one of the state of the exile interviews chris already mentioned that they don't have any plans for further modifications for the labyrinth and move on to new content, for me that is enough information.

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I'm not saying that GGG aren't working at all, but everything they do is behind a screen of "We can't talk about it because 'derp, expectations.'" You know how DE handles that issue? They set the expectations for the players, and the surprises that do come out are always pleasant ones like, "Hey, check out these awesome new features we decided to throw on melee weapons (alternate holstering animations and new stances) just because it's awesome!"

Not sure what you expect from them. GGG usually starts speaking about things when they know they can pull it off. They don't raise expectations about things they can't implement anymore, they did that in the past a few times and it was a terrible mistake. So you usually get teasers about the next league 2 or 1,5 months before the next league starts. They start teasing bigger changes a bit earlier (like ascendancy classes). If you look through some posts from the past you will find a lot of things they wanted to do, which are still not in the game... some of those things are from Beta even. They are more focused on speaking about what they actually do and are working on, instead of speaking about what could happen at some point eventually.

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Emphasy wrote:

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I participated in the following threads:

- free4all vs. perm allocated loot -> GGG added perm allocation as an option
- Chaos Inoculation needs a buff -> GGG added max ES nodes behind CI
- Many threads regarding balancechanges (boss difficulty) and content (strength of uniques) -> GGG listened to the community and fixed stuff

Well honestly I wouldn't count these, they are hugely different. Despite players often disagreeing with balance decisions there are a whole lot more decisions they agree on. So GGG very likely had a similar idea about balance as the players did. They didn't buff CI because players wanted it, they buffed it because it was underused and felt weak. And it is to be expected that if something actually is weak that players and GGG notice this alike.

The Free4all thing was a very slim change and they basically said from the beginning that they want their system but they won't push it at all costs, they just didn't want people to doom it from the start without playing at all. But a lot of situations caused issues with the system (like zombies spreading tar on death not allowing a ranged char to get as quick to the loot as a melee). Which ultimately lead to them changing the system, which technically only required a second for them (since perm. allocation could be temp. allocation with just a few zeros added to the time they items are allocated, so if you wait a few years the item might become free4all amd actual free4all is just temp. allocation with the time until the loot is free set to 0. So these changes required not much effort.

But they changed it because they wanted it, they had something in mind with their system, it didn't work out so they changed it, but they gave it some time. But there are a lot of debates, which are still going, were the opposite is the true. They very likely will keep the death penalty, they will very likely keep high end maps gated etc.

So considering the time they invested in the lab and the time it would need to create an alternate way to get ascendancies I doubt something will happen before 3.0. They will likely make continous adjustments to the lab, which is normal, and usually such content gets easier over time (just remember the vaal sideareas when they were implemented, those bosses were terrifying), but at the same time also often gets less rewarding.

Saying "I wouldn't count these" doesnt help at all, because you dont know ifd GGG had planned those change already or not.

But that doesn't change anything: They still added perm allocation after people had created many threads about that and talked for month. GGGs standpoint in the past was, that they wanted to create a cuthroat experience: Players can play together, but they are also enemies when it comes to getting loot. Many arguments were thrown into the discussions (like melee fighters have an advantage to get the items etc.) and in the end GGG decided to please the community and add permanent allocation as an option. And today? No one is playing with free4all. You only see parties with perm allocation. So I guess the community is happy with the change and there were MANY people who were against the idea of having perm allocation as an option.

And how do you know the allocation for items was a small thing? Do you know much about coding? How much time it takes? How it alters the game experience? And saying that a change to lab would take alot of time is also not entirely right, because there ARE suggestions that do not afford alot of time. For example setting the AC points behind Malachai. How long would that take for GGG? They could practically use the code from the lab and put it behind Malachai and add some small Lore behind it so that it makes sense (for example: The village elder gives you access to some long forgotten knowledge which helps you to ascendend). Huray, we solved the problem AND the AC points could also be earned through lab for all those who love the lab so much. Wouldn't require much time and would be the best solution for those who dont like tzhe lab gameplay.

And when they have free time, they can remove the AC points from malachai again and add an alternative (more classic) way in the labyrinth, with less traps and more fights.

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Emphasy wrote:

The thing is, they did give out some numbers. And I have no reason to believe they are lying when they say that there playerbase has grown from perandus to prophecy. But since the lab is not the only change others might simply outweight it, which would still mean that for most players the lab is not the deciding factor for playing or not playing the game, which is very likely. A lot of things in the game are disliked or liked from different players but most of those things don't influence their decision to play much.

And the playerbase dropped quite fast again after prophecy has started. There is always a huge playerbase increasement after the introduction of a new league, but that doesn't mean the playerbase grew. Some player just return for some days to see what has changed and if they are not pleased, they drop it again. Furthermore, Chris said the players are playing the labyrinth. No way?! Ofc they play it! The AC points are behind it and they are just to good to call them "optional content". If you ignore them, your character is flawed compared to people who have AC points. The thing is: Many people just pay for the run and get over it. That's no evidence that players actually like the content. It's just evidence that people want their Ascendency classes. They should remove AC points from lab for one week and put them behind malachai. Just to see if people are still playing the lab if there are no AC points. If they dont, then they had numbers that tells them if the lab is liked or not.

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Emphasy wrote:

An important thing about the lab is that it is not frustrating gameplay. It is very easy to outlevel two of the labyrinths and if you don't enjoy them look up the layout online and be done with it in often less then 15 minutes. The only labyrinth that has the potential to frustrate players is the merciless one, but at this point your build should come together you have much more tools and the merciless lab has a very fair difficulty and some might actually feel it more enjoyable than the earlier labs.

It's not about if the lab is doable or not. It's that people just dont like it. It's boring for them and they dont want to learn how to play "frogger". They just want to min/max their characters and kill stuff. That's how poe before ascendency and that's how people learned to love this game. It's ok if they add experimental content like the lab, but they shouldnt gate character progression content behind that that forces you to go through the lab. Just understand that some people dont like this different playstyle. And some players do multiple characters in some weeks and rerunning the lab over and over again is just... Well, you know what I mean (I hope).

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AceNightFire wrote:

They should remove AC points from lab for one week and put them behind malachai. Just to see if people are still playing the lab if there are no AC points. If they dont, then they had numbers that tells them if the lab is liked or not.

Let's just grant free access to the next difficulty when you kill Voll.
And then we will see how many still run until Malachai.

No, people will take the easy way, it will not mean that it's beneficial to the game, and this is most likely not how GGG wants the game to be.

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goetzjam wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Where did they discuss long term plans with regard to changing existing content? Did they announce somewhere they were going to nerf reflect auras or bosses or items or map drops or anything else in a long term plan? Hell, they didn't even announce fixing desync until shortly before they employed lockstep. I think you're looking through nostalgia glasses.

Edit: casual, your join date is march 2016. Are you just pretending to remember the good old days or are you on an alt account?

Hes on an alt account or a liar either way mostly worth ignoring his comments.

goetzjam, as I told you before, your ad hominem posts weaken the credibility of ALL your posts, not just the ones with insults in them.