[2.6] The Curse Whisperer - Tri-Curse CI Whispering Ice EleRaider - Viable for Everything

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Der_Ich wrote:

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tuffff wrote:

The Witch build gives at a sum 6% more elemental resist.

you're missing the Lightning Walker point.

The Lightning Walker was not used for this build because additional lightning damage bings no benefit.

My bad, did not want to suggest Lightning Walker. I thought you included it when comparing the resists, but was too stupid to add there.

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Der_Ich wrote:

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tuffff wrote:

If you would change the pathing to Unwavering Stance to the left route (starting left from Elementalist) you save 3 points at the cost of 36-44 intelligence and 40% mana regeneration.

My target was to grap the 45 % incrased duration. I do not know how important duration is for this build. I wanted to be as comparable as possible. Taking the way left from Elementalist would result in the same Intelligence (because of Jewel conversation). The left way gives +10 (unconvertable) Strenght more but 40% Mana regneration less. I think the 40% Mana regeneraton is more worth or even no difference.

Yeah left way (still getting the duration on the right) would serve no stat benefits, just getting to US faster.

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Der_Ich wrote:

I am also thinking about the Skill Gems because of the two golems. I would like to use them with Incrased Minion Life and Increased Minion Resistance. Do we need this?

If yes, I do not see a possibility to use Cast on Hit with Immortal Call. I think this will strongly affect the defence.

If no, (maybe I misinterpret the Skill "Your Golems are immune to Elemental Damage") it should be no difference from this point of view.

Maybe I totally missunderstood, but I think Resistances would provide no benefit. With this build (enough range, golems also profit from curses) one could maybe even get along without life support. I mean, it's no big deal to summon them once or twice per map?

PS: Thanks for the work, the stat comparison is pretty nice!

I'm almost done getting my Witch to the point where I can do a good comparison to the Scion and post the Witch build. It's hard to try and calculate everything accurately, too many things that can be missed. So I'm just going to equip the same exact items at comparable levels and see what happens. Of course, we are still in 2.2 for a couple more days, so I'll have to account for the new changes to Elementalist manually. But I want to post it before 2.3 so that people can start using it (although that may be not as easy as in Perandus, since it won't be raining uniques from day 1 of the league; I personally plan on making a lake farmer char first, especially given the challenges that GGG posted).

There are different options for pathing too. I'm trying to find the most optimal one, keeping in mind the leveling too.

Either way, I am sure the Witch will be a viable option. Looking forward to playing with no fear of reflect. At the same time, Scion Eleraider is so much fun for mapping! I think I'm already getting addicted to the super fast pace.

Funny thing: even with Life Leech and IIR/IIQ gems, at 1/3 of the Elezerker 2.2 dps, I see no difference in how quickly mobs die. Just the bosses take slightly longer. Looks like our dps in 2.2 was a massive overkill and we never needed that much.

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Kelvynn wrote:

Funny thing: even with Life Leech and IIR/IIQ gems, at 1/3 of the Elezerker 2.2 dps, I see no difference in how quickly mobs die. Just the bosses take slightly longer. Looks like our dps in 2.2 was a massive overkill and we never needed that much.

Haha amazing, good to hear. I was only leaning more towards witch for dps and reflect reasons. With dps now out of the picture it is going to be a difficult one to pick. I guess as a first char, scion will have a bit of an advantage being less reliant on ascendency nodes and earlier 3 curse/stun immune.

Ok, the numbers are in. This is how the Scion and Witch versions of the build compare to each other at the same level (94) using the same items. The absolute numbers depend on gear, so I just calculated the difference in percentages.

Lv 94 Scion Eleraider (exactly as per this build except take Raider Ascendancy instead of Berserker and replace Controlled Destruction with Life Leech; color the staff RRRBBB).

vs

Lv 94 Witch Elementalist using THIS TREE, still in 2.2, i.e. lacking Mastermind and the 2nd golem. We can discuss the tree in the Witch thread tomorrow, but I chose the most efficient pathing by direct comparison between the alternatives (which cost me about 50 Regrets, but this is Standard, who cares).

Calculating the damage for the Witch is tricky because of Pendulum. Your damage is one number (D1) for 6 sec, and then a higher number (D2) for 4 sec. We will just average it as:
D1 * 0.6 + D2 * 0.4

In 2.3 the Witch will have a 2nd golem (Ice). It increases the crit chance, but that's not significant for this build because the crit chance of Icestorm is very low (6.5%) and is calculated per cast, not per hit. The 2nd golem will give us 40% Increased cold damage. And the Asc node before Mastermind will give 10% Increased elemental damage. So that'll be 50% Increased damage in 2.3, or half of the effect of Pendulum. So I just added half of the difference between D1 and D2 to my numbers to estimate the damage in 2.3.

THE RESULTS:

(Edit: oops, I forgot that the Scion will gain +40 base Int from the new 2 Asc points in 2.3! That affected the results)

The Scion has 5% more ES than the Witch (559 with my items).

The Witch will do 8% more average damage (702 with my items) and will have 20% more fire penetration, amounting to about 18% more real damage, i.e. the Witch's actual damage will be 1.08 * 1.18 = 1.27, or 27% higher than the Scion's. That's against the bosses.

But while clearing the map, the Scion will have a 12% MORE damage modifier from 3 frenzy charges, 32% increased cast and movement speed (3 frenzy + Onslaught). It will bring her DPS very close to the Witch's. And the Scion will get more benefits from flasks since she already has Onslaught and can use Quicksilver and Sulphur flasks, while the Witch will want to prioritize Silvers, and those are harder to keep up.

I still love the Scion. If not for the reflect thing, there would be not enough reasons to play the Witch version. But reflect is a big deal...

Here's a problem I've run into while making the Witch build. Perhaps somebody can come up with a solution while I'm working on the big post.

Problem: can't use CWDT with two golems efficiently!

If you simply replace the Minion Resistance gem with Summon Ice Golem in the CWDT - IC - golem link, it will often summon two copies of the same golem (whichever one comes first in the CWDT checking order). The golems have a 6 sec cooldown, so you need to take enough damage in less than 6 sec to get two different golems. And whenever one of them dies, it will summon the one that's first in the CWDT order even if the other one died. Even when you have 2 different golems up, if you take damage to trigger CDWT again, it will summon the 2nd copy of the first golem and replace your oldest existing golem, and sooner or later you will end up with 2 copies anyway.

You can equip Clayshaper and check it out. I am sure the new addition to Liege is exactly the same as the effect on Clayshaper.

We need two different golems because the buff they provide doesn't stack. You can summon two flame golems with Clayshaper, but they will only give you one buff.

We are using high level CWDT for good IC and high level golems. Changing it to low level will make IC much less useful, and the golems will die way too often. And it still won't help much because we can't predict which golem dies when.

We can unlink the golems from CWDT and summon them manually. But that sounds like a chore.

I found a 'middle ground' solution: keep Flame golem in the CWDT link, move Orb of Storms there to replace Minion Resist (Orb is not CWDT-able, so that won't matter), and put the Ice golem where the Orb was (change color from B to G). This way you can manually summon the ice golem when you see it gone (dead or replaced by 2nd flame golem).

Any better ideas?

What do you guys think about replacing ice golem with lightning golem? Ofc we wont get the benefit of the 40% increased cold damage but with a lvl 20 golem we get 18% cast and attack speed which overall increases our dps as well as increasing our leap slam speed( dunno how it compares to ice golem though).
As a sidenote, this would get us rid of the golem problem as well. If we manually cast lightning golem we get the bonus from mastermind(so that we can ditch orb of storms) so we keep flame golem in the CWDT setup and occasionally use lightning golem manually.
What do u think?

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AlaeEddine wrote:

What do you guys think about replacing ice golem with lightning golem? Ofc we wont get the benefit of the 40% increased cold damage but with a lvl 20 golem we get 18% cast and attack speed which overall increases our dps as well as increasing our leap slam speed( dunno how it compares to ice golem though).
As a sidenote, this would get us rid of the golem problem as well. If we manually cast lightning golem we get the bonus from mastermind(so that we can ditch orb of storms) so we keep flame golem in the CWDT setup and occasionally use lightning golem manually.
What do u think?

Lightning Golem cannot replace Orb of Storms because it won't trigger EO.

Lightning Golem also cannot be used to trigger Mastermind because summoning a new golem replaces the oldest existing golem, i.e. in 10 seconds you will have 2 lightning golems and no flame ones, i.e. lose 80% inc damage, and that's really bad.

Although using Lightning Golem instead of Ice Golem may be interesting. 18% increased cast speed... Hmmm... Can try and see. No need for an extra green socket this way either, which is good cause we use Int items.


The main post has been updated to 2.3, except the trees. Will update those after the patch if they become incompatible with 2.2 links.

The Witch version coming later today.

I have been on the fence with witch and scion.

After reading all posts I think I will go Scion. Faster mapping is what I am looking for whilst being able to move around at a speed and have access to keystones quicker (UW). The Witch may be better at a much higher level but most people get to 80-90.

The dps is already a non factor as Scion with the 'nerf' or witch with the buff is neither here nor there. You were already over capped on deeps as things die so fast. I want the flexibility that scion brings as well as not messing up links to gear to factor in the two golems.

Hi!

The Shavronne's Pace Boots would always grant us 35% Movement Speed as we are always on Full Life (otherwise we would be dead), right?

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Slowdice2 wrote:

Hi!

The Shavronne's Pace Boots would always grant us 35% Movement Speed as we are always on Full Life (otherwise we would be dead), right?

Even if it did work, the resist in this build due to so many specific unique items is hard to cap. So you would want to use the remaining pieces to get some solid res. Remember the jewels have 0 res. are a