The lab was the final nail

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goetzjam wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

I support some compromises to the labyrinth like Checkpoints after an Izaro's stage, and reducing the punishing aspect for ES builds, but that's it.

Why would an ES build need a checkpoint after Izaro? People have ran the lab as ci, you just have to play more careful and actually dodge the traps.

Checkpoints are weak and clearly a SC only thing, not worth the effort of implementation IMO. It really isnt that difficult to do the lab.

Why ES builds have to be more punished than life builds? It's about fairness. CI are already at a disadvantage anyway.

Checkpoints seem fine for a SC enviroment, we agree. I can do the labyrinth in one run, but I've seen my progress evaporated by random DCs. The current way of doing things discourages exploration (you have to run to avoid losing progress) and it's bad for people learning the labyrinth in the short run. Not everyone can stomach doing the thing many times until learning it to do it quick and flawless like you or me (well, I can do better). It's not that easy, and you would lie to yourself saying otherwise. It's just a little help.

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NeroNoah wrote:

It's not that easy, and you would lie to yourself saying otherwise.

No, the lab is not easy. If it was easy, it would be boring. And boring is not good for a game.

Problem is, once you get high enough in level, the lab actually does get easy, the traps being the only thing that is still somewhat challenging.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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NeroNoah wrote:

I support some compromises to the labyrinth like Checkpoints after an Izaro's stage, and reducing the punishing aspect for ES builds, but that's it.

Why would an ES build need a checkpoint after Izaro? People have ran the lab as ci, you just have to play more careful and actually dodge the traps.

Checkpoints are weak and clearly a SC only thing, not worth the effort of implementation IMO. It really isnt that difficult to do the lab.

Why ES builds have to be more punished than life builds? It's about fairness. CI are already at a disadvantage anyway.

Checkpoints seem fine for a SC enviroment, we agree. I can do the labyrinth in one run, but I've seen my progress evaporated by random DCs. The current way of doing things discourages exploration (you have to run to avoid losing progress) and it's bad for people learning the labyrinth in the shortrun. Not everyone can stomach doing the thing many times until learning it to do it quick and flawless like you or me (well, I can do better). It's not that easy, and you would lie to yourself saying otherwise.

Fairness is a joke of an argument, why do ES builds have twice the amount of ES then life builds have life sometimes? Because they are different and as such they have different upsides and downsides.

The point is why do ES builds need a checkpoint after the boss fight, typically there are packs of various mobs to refill flask and obviously you've already recharged your ES by that point. Its not like you do the boss and immediately face an obstacle of traps.


Checkpoints for SC players IMO just dumb down the experience. If it can be done in 1 go without deaths not only from current HC characters but people like my noob shitter friend then it doesn't need changed. People just need to learn, its actually an amazing concept. There isn't enough incentive as is to explore anyway, which IMO is nothing but a massive waste of time. So it being discouraged by not having checkpoints is perfectly fine with me.

LOL, it really is that fucking easy dude. My friend, never watches\watched poe streamers, never asked me for help to navigate, never asked me to explain the mechanics he just did it and failed a couple times pre nerf, but after he got it it felt super rewarding to him to complete. Now if people aren't "smart enough" to figure out how to navigate seek out help, reddit literally has a thread every day describing how to go and where to go.


Checkpoints just cheapen the lab experience and more importantly the goal that GGG specifically wanted all players to experience a portion of the HC experience.

Does it matter if ES builds have more EHP when the damage is proportional anyway?

No one said checkpoints are only for ES builds. Checkpoints are there for people that have random DCs, performance issues or screwed at some point while learning. There are incentives to learn to do the labyrinth correctly anyway, specially in Merciless.

I hope next expansion bring a dungeon where HC characters don't die permanently so HC players can taste the SC experience. I want to see you complain then. Or better, a resurrection amulet.

I'd argue the checkpoints would change the experience towards more exploration rather than just cheapening it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Does it matter if ES builds have more EHP when the damage is proportional anyway?

No one said checkpoints are only for ES builds. Checkpoints are there for people that have random DCs, performance issues or screwed at some point while learning. There are incentives to learn to do the labyrinth correctly anyway, specially in Merciless.

I hope next expansion bring a dungeon where HC characters don't die permanently so HC players can taste the SC experience. I want to see you complain then. Or better, a resurrection amulet.

I'd argue the checkpoints would change the experience towards more exploration rather than just cheapening it.

Random DC's shouldn't be happening you don't change the game content\design because of issues that will get fixed. In terms of performance issues those from what I see regarding the lab specifically are mainly fixed. In terms of learning if you have the ability to zerg without consequence you won't learn.


Lol the game is a hardcore ARPG game, so a dungeon or piece of content wouldn't be designed to not perm kill the character in HC. They would never introduce an amulet or whatever that is cheat death, no one would like ever die.


It changes the experience of the lab because it cheapens the I have to do this in 1 sitting and 1 try type of thing. Exploration like I said is ~ pointless.

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goetzjam wrote:

Random DC's shouldn't be happening you don't change the game content\design because of issues that will get fixed. In terms of performance issues those from what I see regarding the lab specifically are mainly fixed. In terms of learning if you have the ability to zerg without consequence you won't learn.

You are wrong. You don't design content a engine can't tolerate. Many developers commit that mistake. Know your limits and all that. I still have performance issues. Optimization will likely take a year or more.

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goetzjam wrote:

Lol the game is a hardcore ARPG game, so a dungeon or piece of content wouldn't be designed to not perm kill the character in HC. They would never introduce an amulet or whatever that is cheat death, no one would like ever die.

It changes the experience of the lab because it cheapens the I have to do this in 1 sitting and 1 try type of thing. Exploration like I said is ~ pointless.

If it happens I will collect your tears. If you don't want SC content in HC, don't support so easily HC content in SC. It will weaken your claims later.

Your idea of the experience of the lab is subjective, and your distaste for exploration is disturbing. There are many players that enjoy exploration (me included). It's part of a hardcore experience.

Path of exile is hardcore, but when it refers to hardcore it doesn't necessarily mean hardcore in the same way than hardcore leagues, nor equates hardcore to punishing (it's obvious they are moving from that concept).

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You are wrong. You don't design content a engine can't tolerate. Many developers commit that mistake. Know your limits and all that. I still have performance issues. Optimization will likely take a year or more.

The engine can tolerate it I haven't had a single disconnect when in the lab, i've had a couple of crashes when loading in which are a little annoying but given how I leave the game open like 24\7 and how many times I've ran the lab it isn't that bad, the point here being the crashes happen on the initial load in for me not during the lab at all, which means if it works for me it works for others and the engine can support it.

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If it happens I will collect your tears. If you don't want SC content in HC, don't support so easily HC content in SC. It will weaken your claims later.

My tears? What are you 12? I don't think that SC content has any place in a hardcore setting, but a hardcore like challenge has a place in a NON PERM DEATH environment. You think that its "softcore" it isn't, its standard and just perandus league, do you see them describing the experience as softcore? No This game has no room for SC only style content given its design.

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Your idea of the experience of the lab is subjective, and your distaste for exploration is disturbing. There are many players that enjoy exploration (me included). It's part of a hardcore experience.

I run it to enchant my items, not really for anything else. If there is something cool that was discovered like a silver chest that had a unique item or whatever I may go out of my way to do that, but I don't necessarily care about that I run the lab for the 1 reason in which I do.

If the lab had a higher level zone the side zones and such would be more rewarding but its current iteration doesn't encourage that for me.

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Path of exile is hardcore, but when it refers to hardcore it doesn't necessarily mean hardcore in the same way than hardcore leagues, nor equates hardcore to punishing (it's obvious they are moving from that concept).

Its hardcore as in design, which essentially just means its not going to hold your hand or make things easier just to appeal to a more casual audience. In terms of punishing it still is in various circumstances, not sure what your point is here.

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goetzjam wrote:

The engine can tolerate it I haven't had a single disconnect when in the lab, i've had a couple of crashes when loading in which are a little annoying but given how I leave the game open like 24\7 and how many times I've ran the lab it isn't that bad, the point here being the crashes happen on the initial load in for me not during the lab at all, which means if it works for me it works for others and the engine can support it.

You are not everyone. That applies to the rest too. Your way of seeing things is not universal, nor necessarily right.

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goetzjam wrote:

I run it to enchant my items, not really for anything else. If there is something cool that was discovered like a silver chest that had a unique item or whatever I may go out of my way to do that, but I don't necessarily care about that I run the lab for the 1 reason in which I do.

That's the experience of someone farming in Merciless with a high level character. Exploration still applies, specially in other difficulties. Exploration for exploration's sake is still fun if it doesn't apply.

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goetzjam wrote:

Its hardcore as in design, which essentially just means its not going to hold your hand or make things easier just to appeal to a more casual audience. In terms of punishing it still is in various circumstances, not sure what your point is here.

That's your meaning of hardcore, not everyone's meaning. The game has become less punishing over time, and more fair (even with random stuff that screws you up from time to time).

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You are not everyone. That applies to the rest too. Your way of seeing things is not universal, nor necessarily right.

You can't blame the engine or something when it clearly can't be an engine issue if it works for various people.

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That's the experience of someone farming in Merciless with a high level character. Exploration still applies, specially in other difficulties. Exploration for exploration's sake is still fun if it doesn't apply.

I've been playing this game for a very long time, I've gotten past the whole idea that i should check every corner and cranny for something, it isn't efficient to play that way and will net you less profits and considering my goal of doing the lab over and over is simply enchants going out and scouting around reduces my efficiency of trying to get the enchant I want.

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That's your meaning of hardcore, not everyone's meaning. The game has become less punishing over time, and more fair (even with random stuff that screws you up from time to time).

That is likely what the dev's view of hardcore is in terms of hardcore ARPG game. Not just mine. I see you don't dispute the hardcore vs softcore argument I made earlier because you know it is correct.

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goetzjam wrote:

You can't blame the engine or something when it clearly can't be an engine issue if it works for various people.

Without any hard numbers is a pointless conversation to have. I still have DCs, that's the reality. Many have, many don't.

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goetzjam wrote:

I've been playing this game for a very long time, I've gotten past the whole idea that i should check every corner and cranny for something, it isn't efficient to play that way and will net you less profits and considering my goal of doing the lab over and over is simply enchants going out and scouting around reduces my efficiency of trying to get the enchant I want.

This is a suggestion for those that don't play like you, and I don't think it affects your experience too much.

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goetzjam wrote:

That is likely what the dev's view of hardcore is in terms of hardcore ARPG game. Not just mine. I see you don't dispute the hardcore vs softcore argument I made earlier because you know it is correct.

I think Rhys wrote his view once in detail. They have different views, and have changed them many times in the past. Also, hardcore can mean many things in one context or other. Chris has explicitly said the labyrinth is a taste of a hardcore experience, I just disagree and I suggest to change it. They can take it or not, but it's not about an absolute idea of hardcore at all. I can live with the labyrinth as it is, I just suggest compromise.

We'll have to agree to disagree.