The lab was the final nail

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Turtledove wrote:

This once again demonstrates a big problem with some of the design decisions and some of the community's attitude, IMHO. This is just a game and games are meant to be enjoyed. Not everyone enjoys playing games the same way. For example, if I had a job where I didn't have to use my brain much and wasn't stressed then I might be more likely to look for a game that required more mental alertness and was a bit more stressful. I have a job that is stressful and requires high mental concentration all day, so I usually would rather play a game where I can try to relax more and not get stressed. We should try to encourage people to play PoE not discourage them and punish them for playing.

Now, to those that are inclined to respond, "Well just go away and don't play the game then. It must not be the game for you!". You would just be making my point. I played this game almost everyday for almost two years. It's a fun game. Most things are done right and the community is generally very thoughtful, helpful and honest. I enjoyed my time here. I'm playing another game now because I don't enjoy the labyrinth style gameplay and the labyrinth is part of the required gameplay in PoE now.

I have nothing particularly against you, but...seriously, this game is extremely harsh many times. How the hell didn't you get stressed until now?

I can easily remember Dominus pre nerf, Invasion League pre nerf, Atziri, Masters with their backtracking, Awakening with Malachai pre nerf, Piety the Abomination pre nerf, everyone builds nerfed, then RNGesus screwing around with random one shots and not giving any drop.

This is my idea of the game:



Truth is, you can't please everyone, and this game always has been in the punishing direction. If you weren't complaining, other people would (see Diablo 3 forums for the other extreme).

GGG is going to keep pushing in this direction because it was their original vision.

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Frattagli4 wrote:

In particular, and maybe someone can help me to counter this aswell it happens that it does some kind of whitish reavish thing that's quit fast and hard to dodge. That's actually the most dangerous and often oneshotting attack i get when Izzy has some nasty mods i fail to switch off.

You have to look to his animation. He makes a windup animation first. Generally, you want to hit him, run around him a little and hit him again (as a melee). If your performance is screwed, you'll have a hard time seeing it.

Double

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Frattagli4 wrote:

And some attacks can still oneshot you out of the blue with more than 4000 hp

run trials better.
he just doesnt do that damage without buffs.

Yep, but don't get me wrong, i like to run the lab but actually he has a different pace compared to other bosses. And some attacks can still oneshot you out of the blue with more than 4000 hp, that'd be fine with a better ilvl but i feel like it's not fitting in a 68 zone. Maybe it 'd be fair if Izzy and treasure chests were considered ilvl 75ish for loot purpouse.

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You have to look to his animation. He makes a windup animation first. Generally, you want to hit him, run around him a little and hit him again (as a melee). If your performance is screwed, you'll have a hard time seeing it.

Thank you mate!

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Frattagli4 wrote:

Yep, but don't get me wrong, i like to run the lab but actually he has a different pace compared to other bosses. And some attacks can still oneshot you out of the blue with more than 4000 hp, that'd be fine with a better ilvl but i feel like it's not fitting in a 68 zone. Maybe it 'd be fair if Izzy and treasure chests were considered ilvl 75ish for loot purpouse.

The relationship between area level and difficulty is fairly fuzzy in this game, specially in the endgame.

The lab is an example of confidence in punishing game design gone rogue.

It is also just a bone to say here is a new expansion. 6 trials (which are tiny quads of a dungeon) and one giant random dungeon isn't an expansion, its an adventure zone.

The amount of anxiety it generates isn't sufficiently rewarded to justify going through it.

It's a crap dungeon and a crap expansion.

There are ways to mitigate this and make it a great dungeon.

either remove perma death or remove some of the traps or revise rules for trap placement.

Frozen/Chill sniper traps over any other trap is way too insane.

Izaro while definitely challenging is far easier to deal with than Malachi. Izaro is an example of better boss design. Malachi needs to be redone entirely and fall in line more with Izaro.

Maybe they should actually nerf Merciless Lab (a bit), and give an accessible higher-level variant of the labyrinth.

Then again, Merciless Lab should be doable once you are about level 80, and before that, there is no need for the final two Ascendancy points.

They should still implement a higher-level lab.

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jcannonb wrote:

The lab is an example of confidence in punishing game design gone rogue.

It is also just a bone to say here is a new expansion. 6 trials (which are tiny quads of a dungeon) and one giant random dungeon isn't an expansion, its an adventure zone.

The amount of anxiety it generates isn't sufficiently rewarded to justify going through it.

It's a crap dungeon and a crap expansion.

There are ways to mitigate this and make it a great dungeon.

either remove perma death or remove some of the traps or revise rules for trap placement.

Frozen/Chill sniper traps over any other trap is way too insane.

Izaro while definitely challenging is far easier to deal with than Malachi. Izaro is an example of better boss design. Malachi needs to be redone entirely and fall in line more with Izaro.

The expansion is the asendancy classes, the lab, the enchantments, the new map (just the white one) all encompass to make the expansion, not just the trails and the "shit zone" as you so say.


Anxiety for what? The lab just requires a bit of knowledge and discovery to complete I've got a friend I used to work with that ran it prenerf and beat it without any help whatsoever from me (i couldnt directly help him if I wanted to im in PHC and hes in PSC) regardless he actually like the lab now that he knows what various things do and how to navigate it.


Perm death isn't going to go anywhere, its not "perm death" anyway you aren't playing HC, its just do the run deathless, which players do in HC all the time.

Some of the traps are easier then others, learning what and how each interact is key, or not panicking is a good ida as well.

The chill dart poison things are by far the most annoying I think, but you can block those with summons, not sure if totems can as well, plus they added a posion removal mod, which should (havent tested) remove the slow.

Malachai is perfect and doesn't need any changes whatsoever. At least normal and cruel. Haven't done core considering I only play in HC temp leagues.

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jcannonb wrote:

The lab is an example of confidence in punishing game design gone rogue.

It is also just a bone to say here is a new expansion. 6 trials (which are tiny quads of a dungeon) and one giant random dungeon isn't an expansion, its an adventure zone.

The amount of anxiety it generates isn't sufficiently rewarded to justify going through it.

The first part is debatable. Unless you are going CI/low life, you have problems with Izaro's charges or have performance issues (I have some), the design is fair (yes, even the trap gauntlets have counterplay).

Expansions in this game have not the same meaning that expansions in buy to play games. I think Chris refers to this as "mini expansions". Lot of content, but not necessarily D2: LoD levels of content.

The anxiety seems to be different from individual to individual. I, for once, was relaxed the whole walkthrough, then again, I have accepted death (I've only died once to the labyrinth).

I support some compromises to the labyrinth like Checkpoints after an Izaro's stage, and reducing the punishing aspect for ES builds, but that's it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

I support some compromises to the labyrinth like Checkpoints after an Izaro's stage, and reducing the punishing aspect for ES builds, but that's it.

Why would an ES build need a checkpoint after Izaro? People have ran the lab as ci, you just have to play more careful and actually dodge the traps.

Checkpoints are weak and clearly a SC only thing, not worth the effort of implementation IMO. It really isnt that difficult to do the lab.