General class balance observations
|
The fuck did i just read.
"scrotie : here are my conclusions based on current statistics provided by the top players currently" "other people : clearly there is no experience component involved in this statistical data" I think you made an error scrotie, clearly your statistics should have been solely based on the #1 in the league's and gone from there. I mean, the top 100 are just a bunch of incompetent losers.
Spoiler
/ObligatoryThisIsSarcasmSupport
Regardless of that there is an underlying issue with your suggestion. Why attempt or desire to create stability in class orientation when GGG themselves don't want it? It is quite obvious stability will never be this games selling point, unless a tidal wave of epic proportions cleanses wreaclast. It's not as much moving forwards as moving a bit to the left, to the right, shake it all about and go again. Forward imply's a unified goal to aim for, which is not the case. Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
| |
":) I actually don't think this thread has bad feedback, assuming you remove the ridiculous antagonism towards me. It is worth noting that the three "caster classes" are 4-7 in overall power, so the notion that casters in general are underpowered right now isn't a silly one. Caster defense is at least a plausible cause. I feel the Templar's numbers show it is safe to buff casters in general as well as a more targeted Templar buff. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
|
|
|
So the unwritten assumption here is that the top 100 (though it should be 500-1000 to have more statistical significance) take classes to their full potential, while the rest of the population plays them at a fraction of their full potential.
If good players see more potential in a class than community average, why does that necessarily mean that class is overpowered? Sure if you define balanced as "equally popular among all levels of players," then it's overpowered, but that seems like a useless definition of power. As in what is the use of that definition, what would you do with it, and to achieve what goals? ------- Unrelated, but I find it troubling that when I call out someone for posting bad builds, I get put on probation for "going against the forum guideliness against insulting others' style of play" but then " 1.) uses "prostitute" as a slur. Imagine if he used religious, ethnic, gender, or sexual orientation-based slurs. 2.) calls players who like to play to win "top nerd", and strongly implies they are 'defiling' "rich game systems" (i.e. not using them 'properly') And not only does support not put him on probation, it also lets the post stand uneditted for days. All my builds /view-thread/1430399 T14 'real' clearspeed challenge /1642265 Last edited by MatrixFactor#3574 on Sep 11, 2015, 1:00:21 PM
|
|
|
I don't think these statistics tell anything.
There's too much FOTM and other trends in there... For me, a class is defined by two things: a) the first 5 skillpoints (except Scion). b) the look. a) 99% of my builds venture into other zones to grab the nice notables. So the only real difference is these 5 points (and maybe the 1 point you spend on the other start, like 8% attackspeed at Ranger). Shadow is just worse than Ranger, if the tree involves the "first notables" of both zones. And Templar? He has only 5% life in his first points. Marauder has more. Bye, bye, Templar. Additionally, both Shadow and Templar try to make you play some hybrid stuff that nobody wants to play (Armor/Evasion+ES+life). Duelist has Armor+Evasion, but that actually works. ES+Evasion? Yeah, great choice. Scion is different, she has access to a bunch of jewels and all areas in the tree. But her starting nodes are horrible, and she has to venture quite far to get into other starting zones, so I think she is fine overall (op if and only if you have a bunch of gg jewels). b) I played Shadow once for ten minutes. Then I realized he will never stand upright, will always be crouched. I hated that. Never played him again. And he has a horrible face (but at least we can cover this with gear). Templar has no pants. Seriously, this is an issue. He's an ugly old man wearing a sleepshirt. If I have a choice between him and Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson (Marauder), I'll never pick him. If I have a choice between him and Hermione Granger (Witch), I'll never pick him. 3.5 build: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2299519 Last edited by Peterlerock#5171 on Sep 11, 2015, 1:18:10 PM
|
|
|
This is fascinating. Interesting stuff Scrotie.
I'm curious - what is the average level for the characters at 15000? That Duelist and Shadow discrepancy in Warbands is interesting. Shadow is understandable, but Duelist discrepancy between 15000 and top 100 is really intriguing. Templar getting absolutely killed in both leagues LOL. Would be really interesting to see this over time for successive leagues - I have an inkling Marauder and Scion have stayed at the top for many leagues; and from what I can try and recall Templar and Witch did very well last few leagues but now seem to have dropped off in 2.0. Would be great if GGG could also release the keystone infographic for the leagues like they did last year. One can dream right? I have a strong suspicion Iron Reflexes has remained the top keystone EVERY league, and IR's margin of popularity is probably now really dramatic (i.e. imbalanced) given all the 2.0 changes. EDIT: The Tempest data for top 100 - is this all top 100 characters? Or only the first 100 that are still alive? Last edited by Ceryneian#3541 on Sep 11, 2015, 2:26:55 PM
|
|
" Good point, actually. Shadow can be a good choice only for physical spell build, like EK. Aside from that, his starting nodes suck. Duelist is decent choice for attack builds, but usually, either Ranger (for evasion builds) or Maradeur (for Armour builds) are a bit better. Templar just has awful starting nodes.... Life/mana regen? Armour+ES? Really? IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504 There is no knowledge That is not power |
|
"All top 100 because I was lazy. Earlier someone pointed out that 100 is a smallish sample size, which is fair. I plan on redoing OP later tonight, looking at four populations: top 15000, top 3000, top 600, and top 120. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
|
|
|
I redid the data in the OP using the tiered system described in the previous post.
The additional data cast some serious doubt on pretty much every opinion I held in my "nitpick" section of the original OP, with the possible exception of Shadows being underpowered (which still has some support from the data, but surprisingly weak support - I wouldn't be very confident providing large boosts to Shadows at this point). Maybe adding some leech rate to the Drinker clusters, perhaps, since that seems to be an oversight anyway... buffing further than that would run too great a risk of overbuffing. The Scion's overpoweredness is revealed to be even more pervasive than the original data indicated. And the Templar is still underpowered. So my non-nitpicks were still correct. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 12, 2015, 1:06:31 AM
|
|
" Scion OPness has really big roots in the fact that every single popular high end build and budget build plays her the best. For example poison arrow is an extremely popular build that also is best with Scion, and then you can use your poison arrow build to fund your shav/lighting hammer character which scion ALSO is best at. She can statistically be balanced but broken in the fact that majority of popular builds is best with her. The ability to "cut" through the tree and access areas you exactly one was something people ignored before since they nerfed the middle into oblivion pre-jewel buff. Since almost all major keystones at the very end of the tree where super nerfed (ondor guile, BM ect) there is less of an problem for scion who usually have to invest more to get to the edges of the tree. Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Sep 12, 2015, 1:41:33 AM
|
|
"Although I'm not really sold on the idea that she can be statistically balanced but still imbalanced in practice - which is basically saying statistics are shit at measuring such things, when I think the right statistics could - it's really a moot point. She's not statistically balanced at the moment, or even close to it. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
|
|
