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TheAnuhart wrote:
2.0.4 The Learning? The Reality? The Rude Awakening?
-_-
Path of Exile 2.1.0 Open Beta 3.0
IGN: Victory_Or_Sovngarde
It's not a 13 week development cycle, it's a 13 week supporter-pack cycle.
You can play any build you want, as long as it's the current meta.
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I agree with a lot of what Snorkle has said. Context is everything. The same kinds of statistics were used by legatus1982 - anyone remember that guy/account? - to explain why shadows sucked, right in the middle of the crit-heavy meta. When shadows were rocking crit like crazy in builds that could afford not to go all out on defenses.
Context is *everything*. Lies, lies and damn statistics. The game is deep if flawed, it needs a deep understanding to know why it's currently flawed. Scions are favoured because they can get life on every jewel, and it's path of life nodes (again), for one thing. Many, many other influences are involved in why a class predominates.
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Posted bydavidnn5#4453on Sep 10, 2015, 5:34:17 AM
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
You dont seem to know this, I know it because I play the game a lot. The devs who designed the tree dont seem to know this, i know it because I play the game a lot, shitloads of people who play the game a lot and make a lot of min/max builds know this. Thats why the devs should listen to what those players have to say, not players who have the same incomplete info they have that has led to these bad design decisions. The devs can make educated guesses already, the problem they have is not having the actual experience that expert, been there and done it players have that highlights where the game plays out in ways educated guessing cant always predict.
Templar was played a lot because spells are sure thing budget/early league build. Now they completely fucked caster defenses and forced them to use melee defense, so you are better starting a spell caster as a scion who can reach melee defenses/life easily and still get damage by using jewels so you dont need to be heavy into the witch and templar. They fucked caster defenses to try and fix people using spell builds too often, and it didnt work, like experienced players told them it wouldnt work. You just end up making more marauder and scion casters which is a stupid way to have a spell build meta.
The reason people use spells is because theyre easy to scale damage wise with next to no gear. The devs decided cloak of defiance, mom and aa were the problem, because theyre fucking clueless and theyre basing these judgements on server stats rather than knowing the game from a players point of view. They decided those defenses were too strong, even though they were shit but were just better on a budget than the other options, thats where the real problem was, why are people not picking hybrid and ci as a defense mechanic? Why are people not choosing attacks as an offense mechanic? These were the problems that needed fixing if there even was a problem that needed fixing, imo it was debatable if this was even a problem not just a consequence of acceptable differences. Real players could have told them that but their voice was lost in a sea of clueless people talking about cod being op based on a lot of people using it, which is the same useless info ggg have looking at server stats and seeing cod being used way too much.
Well said.
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Posted bytoyotatundra#0800on Sep 10, 2015, 6:17:50 AM
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From the dev manifesto post:
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Qarl wrote:
... and the meta changes with rarity.
Apparently the meta changes with (unique) item rarity?
um.....wut (seriously someone please explain this one to me)
As Snorkle has been saying (in general), seems like bad data to balance around.
Arctic Armour now being more of a melee defence aura is a joke (throw in Hypothermia too). Blood Rage and Arctic Armour changes are a fucking train wreck atm.
There is Strength and there is Accessibility. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME.
I don't think balancing around statistics can work for Path of Exile. If we (arbitrarily) divide the player-base into Elite Players and Casual Players at an 20%:80% ratio the 80% group might gravitate towards certain builds that work well on a lower budget. Why should high representation of certain mechanics/items/skills inside the 80% group warrant nerfs? It's basically exactly what happened to Cloak of Defiance. Blood Rage nerfnuked too (synergy in 20% group builds), nice game.
Cloak is such an *interesting* item; prior to 2.0.0 there were probably >0.01% of builds taking the MoM keystone since you could get a better version on cloak and it synergised with the rest of your build anyway. Now that synergy has all but been obliterated, not mentioning the buffed up physical damage from monsters....
RE: Class Balance
The only time I have EVER picked a class before picking a skill to build around was my first character on my first day of POE. After choosing a skill the efficiency comparison begins.
Duelist at heart, haven't rolled a duelist in 3 years... gg.
@sidtherat
If GGG announced the next major patch to be their super-duper best-effort balancing patch that would get me very hyped.
IGN: Victory_Or_Sovngarde
It's not a 13 week development cycle, it's a 13 week supporter-pack cycle.
You can play any build you want, as long as it's the current meta. Last edited by Ashen_Shugar_IV#4253 on Sep 10, 2015, 7:24:04 AM
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
there is a problem with the shadow, its a shit start, you are right but you dont know why you are right.
You're right, I don't know why. But I do know how. I trust the results of top players, collected in aggregate, rather than thinking I'm the end-all and be-all of PoE knowledge. So naturally, I find your attitude of (essentially) "fuck statistics, I know everything I need to know" to be, essentially, hubris.
but you are evaluating classes base on use of classes, when use of classes is something effected by what skills are currently good, what defenses are currently good, what items are easy to get, what popular streamers are doing... many factors that have nothing to do with the actual class and if its nodes need changed or not. So yes you know the data, you dont know how to read the data because you dont know enough about the game, so u presume, and presume wrongly.
That isn't what I'm measuring, and I know a thing or two about noob errors in interpreting data.
The stat from which I am drawing conclusions is % of top 100 divided by % of top 15000. I'm taking how well a class does in the highest tier of play, then dividing it by a measure of how popular it is. Results/popularity. Not just popularity; in fact, results with popularity factored out.
L2stat, bro.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 10, 2015, 3:19:24 PM
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Sep 10, 2015, 3:17:53 PM
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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:
Fro@sidtherat
If GGG announced the next major patch to be their super-duper best-effort balancing patch that would get me very hyped.
Isn't that what the Awakening was supposed to be? Had its own beta and everything?
I feel it was a tad rushed, and a lot of Beta feedback was sadly ignored, but it will have to be a while before another major rebalance or Standard will riot.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 10, 2015, 6:44:10 PM
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Sep 10, 2015, 6:43:21 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
That's really quite rude coming from someone who wants radical changes to be made to the game based on pure theory and without having to be burdened with actually playing it.
Snorkle tells you that your stats are useless without current experience in a wide range of builds and play styles to inform an analysis. You then respond with why your stats are good. Really, you seem like a nice guy but spend a little time actually doing things as well as throwing theories at every aspect of your life ;P
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Posted bydavidnn5#4453on Sep 10, 2015, 6:59:06 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
That isn't what I'm measuring, and I know a thing or two about noob errors in interpreting data.
The stat from which I am drawing conclusions is % of top 100 divided by % of top 15000. I'm taking how well a class does in the highest tier of play, then dividing it by a measure of how popular it is. Results/popularity. Not just popularity; in fact, results with popularity factored out.
L2stat, bro.
and the resulting data should be telling you something about skill gems, defense mechanics, item availability, community trends that are not actually directly tied to what is optimal etc, a whole bunch of stuff other than the nodes each class has.
youre not just basing a judgement of a classes nodes off meaningless numbers, you are basing it off meaningless numbers divided by meaningless numbers, good to know.
You know about noob errors in interpreting data, but you didnt know 3 rolled maps vendor into an unid map until last month after you had made a thread about how they should change the map vendor system from your great position of knowledge about mapping. Something that people who actually play this game have known forever, and then you decided the vendor was good, because you dont understand that an extra 30% quant is basically meaningless, because you know nothing about mapping. That sums you up basically.
Last edited by Snorkle_uk#0761 on Sep 10, 2015, 8:56:39 PM
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Posted bySnorkle_uk#0761on Sep 10, 2015, 8:55:02 PM
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Oh, nice. Baseless dismissals and copious ad hominem. This thread is going places.
Templar UP, Scion OP. That's not opinion, that's demonstrable fact. I don't even think snorkle disagrees with this (although more focused on Shadow, which also seems UP right now but is nevertheless superior to Templar).
He just won't accept the idea that someone might know something by looking at overall trends, which he views as an illegitimate shortcut to finding out everything via direct, exhaustive no-lifer experience. As seen in his patently absurd expectations of how much time devs should play their own game.
Whatevs. Those with eyes can see. First half of OP does that itself, everything I've wrote since isn't nearly as important. Have fun with the thread.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 11, 2015, 1:39:49 AM
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Sep 10, 2015, 9:30:23 PM
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Snorkle_uk wrote:
Nerfing duelist in an unspecific way because hes being used for unknown reasons is just flat out ridiculous.
Well no shit. Obviously one would need to actually solve the mystery of it all first. Maybe no action is required, idk. But it would be nice to know why, and I'm advocating looking into some potentially OP shit.
well theres a lot of people who understand why you would chose one thing over another, because they play the game a lot. Maybe leave them to talk about how to change this game to make things better?
im not saying it makes u a bad person or bad player or theres anything wrong with not no lifing this game and being an expert as a consequence, its not meant as an insult, you know way more than you should given your play experience because you are a very smart person who cna put 2 ans 2 together and often come to the right conclusion.
there is a problem with the shadow, its a shit start, you are right but you dont know why you are right. The reason is because the first 5 nodes are all damage no matter what way you chose to go. In highly efficient builds you usually only take damage when it leads to a notable in the majority of cases, where with life you take small life nodes regardless of a notable being there, you take every life node you can reach. That means if you start shadow you probably take all the life nodes at the ranger start, but if you start ranger you will rarely take all the damage nodes in the shadow start because you will get better damage from a cluster containing a notable elsewhere on the tree. This makes the ranger more efficient life start in 95%+ of cases.
You dont seem to know this, I know it because I play the game a lot. The devs who designed the tree dont seem to know this, i know it because I play the game a lot, shitloads of people who play the game a lot and make a lot of min/max builds know this. Thats why the devs should listen to what those players have to say, not players who have the same incomplete info they have that has led to these bad design decisions. The devs can make educated guesses already, the problem they have is not having the actual experience that expert, been there and done it players have that highlights where the game plays out in ways educated guessing cant always predict.
Templar was played a lot because spells are sure thing budget/early league build. Now they completely fucked caster defenses and forced them to use melee defense, so you are better starting a spell caster as a scion who can reach melee defenses/life easily and still get damage by using jewels so you dont need to be heavy into the witch and templar. They fucked caster defenses to try and fix people using spell builds too often, and it didnt work, like experienced players told them it wouldnt work. You just end up making more marauder and scion casters which is a stupid way to have a spell build meta.
The reason people use spells is because theyre easy to scale damage wise with next to no gear. The devs decided cloak of defiance, mom and aa were the problem, because theyre fucking clueless and theyre basing these judgements on server stats rather than knowing the game from a players point of view. They decided those defenses were too strong, even though they were shit but were just better on a budget than the other options, thats where the real problem was, why are people not picking hybrid and ci as a defense mechanic? Why are people not choosing attacks as an offense mechanic? These were the problems that needed fixing if there even was a problem that needed fixing, imo it was debatable if this was even a problem not just a consequence of acceptable differences. Real players could have told them that but their voice was lost in a sea of clueless people talking about cod being op based on a lot of people using it, which is the same useless info ggg have looking at server stats and seeing cod being used way too much. Thats why the game balance is still fucked, because real issues were not addressed properly, were not diagnosed because the devs leading the charge are mostly not experienced players and dont seem to filter feedback and listen to experienced players.
Before this expansion I had a lot of characters, a fair amount were casters, and they were my weakest characters. My most defensively useless, dogshit character was my cod aa mom witch... so ggg decide to nerf the fuck out of that defense mechanic, the weakest defense mechanic i would even consider using. Now I have way less characters, I dont play pure spell casters at all, because they were always a bit shit and now theyre fucking garbage at high levels. But people are still playing them because they cant get 350+ pdps crit weapons to make good attack builds and they just enjoy spells, they simply enjoy playing those skills regardless, which is why they played them in the first place, not because anything was wrong or op about eb mom aa cod.
Class balanced cant be 'fixed' completely until the mechanics of defense and offense are fixed and the skill balance is fixed. Honestly, theres only 1 way to actually balance this game properly, it doesnt involve any suggested change to the game. Qarl and Rory, and Chris because although he isnt involved in balance he is lead dev and has a big say, these 3 guys need a time out. They need to be banned from the office for 4 months, game development taken down to maintenance levels. Their new job is playing the game 10 hours a day 6 days a week in a live league, pref softcore so they dont rip and end up repeating 1-80 again and again and learning fuck all, they need to grind to the mid 90s on many different chars, get a few 100 ex from trade, craft some items, map a shitload for an entire league. Thats how you fix this game, if those guys did this then they wouldnt need us to tell them whats up, they would see it all for themselves and then fix the problems.
Sadly they dont want fixed I think, they dont give a shit about class balance, skill balance or mechanic balance, they just care about shifting imbalance, and they dont need to understand problems to shift imbalance so they dont value having a clue what they are doing any more. All they need to know is enough to be sure if they destroy something that it will shift people around, and that is the only goal, creating a refugee player base constantly evacuating nerfnuked areas of the game.
Fuck yeah, you got it right.
however, devs seem highly resistant to reason in the gaming industry.
and those who actually have some weight behind their opinions (namely streamers) lack the spine to speak up, when confronting a dev.
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