Map vendor formula: should add "2 unidentified maps of same base = +1 level map"

Well, we have seen 2.02 patch notes and the almighty single line for map fix...

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GGG_Neon wrote:

Version 2.0.2


[li]Increased the drop rate of end-game Maps to smoothen the curve into level 74-79 maps.[/li]

It is clear nothing new happened, % might have been tweaked but only time will tell how good that fix is.

On one hand, I'm glad GGG decided to adjust drop rates relatively quickly. On the other hand, I'm sad nothing else has happened, no changes to map trade-in, chisels and overall risk vs reward calamity we have here.

I would expect that boss drops will be further improved to make them desirable--they are certainly underwhelming now if considering bosses in Phantasmagoria, Graveyard, Jungle Valley or Malformation.

Nothing mentioned about low level map drops but it can be built in along the drop rate changes.

All in all, bitter-sweet taste after reading the patch notes.

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Baron01 wrote:

All in all, bitter-sweet taste after reading the patch notes.

Agreed. No changes in mechanics (beyond/exiles dropping maps, fixing garbage maps like Volcano, buffing drop rates of vaal orbs, toning down variance, etc...), just some numbers tweaking.

Multiply this close to zero number with 1.00001 and get some slightly less close to zero number. Meh...

Tbh, I think that beyond / exiles not dropping maps is actually a good thing. GGG doesn't like when people are rolling maps until they get one specific roll, they didn't like it when it was "area is a maze", they didn't like it when it was "+ pack size", and they wouldn't like it if you roll all your maps with beyond / exiles because they are hugely improving your map droprates. They want your map droprate to be only dependant on the quantity bonus, and that's not bad if mods are well balanced, you can make a decision between dangerous mods (high quantity) for increased map drops vs exile/beyond type mods for more xp/loots.
Maybe they should even emphasize more this distinction between "maps progression" mods vs "xp/loot mods" by adding a modifier to map droprate to dangerous mods for example, instead of pure quantity bonus, even if it's already a bit like that (but hidden).

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Dawmz wrote:

Tbh, I think that beyond / exiles not dropping maps is actually a good thing. GGG doesn't like when people are rolling maps until they get one specific roll, they didn't like it when it was "area is a maze", they didn't like it when it was "+ pack size", and they wouldn't like it if you roll all your maps with beyond / exiles because they are hugely improving your map droprates.

I'm not a fan of big variance in the power of map affixes either, but you skipped over a lot of middle ground. Actually, all of it. I think rogue exiles could easily be capable of dropping +2 maps, while dropping maps infrequently enough overall to prevent the Anarchic map affix from being everyone's go-to.

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Dawmz wrote:

Tbh, I think that beyond / exiles not dropping maps is actually a good thing.

I'd agree on exiles, since they have been nerfed hard and are trivial now. But beyond bosses can still be very dangerous / more difficult than map boss and imo it really doesnt make sense that they cant drop maps. +1 would be enough.

When I care about XP loss I actually avoid spawning beyond bosses exactly because they cant drop maps. I can get trash rares in great quantities elsewhere too. There's simply no risk/reward here.

Also on the note of must have / do things, 2.0 introduced the "must roll +3 magic pack on every box without exceptions". Higher maps must have affixes that give packsize, etc..

Total map quantity being the primary variable for map drops is good, but there is still too much variance -> godly rolled 150%+ packsize maps dropping nothing useful vs 40% bricked vaals dropping several +1 maps (ie. there's too much wild rng going on)

I agree with both of you.
For the variance, I think I would do something like this :
- Map boss has a fixed chance to drop a map ranging only from -2 to +2 lvls (skewed against the lowest ones off course), like a fixed 20% chance to drop a map -2 to +2
- Map quantity impacts this fixed chance, so if you have +150% quant, map boss now has 20%+150% = 50% chance to drop a map
- Maybe beyond bosses (uniques) also has the same mechanism with a lower base chance (10 or 5% ?).

But maybe this becomes to be a bit complex.

To complicated for no apparent reason.

Either

1) all unique monsters are able to drop +1 maps, boss of the map being the only exception that can drop a +2.

2) unique spawns have a higher divination card drop rate% but cannot drop maps. This puts limitations on the targeted rolls, while still providing significance or meaning to the units themselves upon defeating.

It doesn't always have to be about maps. . .
In fact they are currently aimed at "pinata dolls", however with the current system of itemization, that holds very little value/impact to a player.

14 rares instead of 8? Ok that's in 99% of the cases one extra alteration orb. In a sense that's very insignificant for a "rewarding" experience".

However, dropping a relevant divination card will always hold meaning/purpose and as such feel rewarding.
(not advocating 100% drop chance here, but a small increase compared to regular mobs so on average they tend to grant more of them over a large sample pool)

It will also provoke the "beyond" roll on high maps that give favorable divination cards. Which will put tension on players to choose xp or card rolls etc.

Just a thought obviously, but i can understand the no map direction of GGG, though they should in fact provide "something" because they are a real challenge on the right maps. And pure loot is really not the answer to a "rewarding experience" for most.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

To complicated for no apparent reason.

Either

1) all unique monsters are able to drop +1 maps, boss of the map being the only exception that can drop a +2.

2) unique spawns have a higher divination card drop rate% but cannot drop maps. This puts limitations on the targeted rolls, while still providing significance or meaning to the units themselves upon defeating.

It doesn't always have to be about maps. . .
In fact they are currently aimed at "pinata dolls", however with the current system of itemization, that holds very little value/impact to a player.

14 rares instead of 8? Ok that's in 99% of the cases one extra alteration orb. In a sense that's very insignificant for a "rewarding" experience".

However, dropping a relevant divination card will always hold meaning/purpose and as such feel rewarding.
(not advocating 100% drop chance here, but a small increase compared to regular mobs so on average they tend to grant more of them over a large sample pool)

It will also provoke the "beyond" roll on high maps that give favorable divination cards. Which will put tension on players to choose xp or card rolls etc.

Just a thought obviously, but i can understand the no map direction of GGG, though they should in fact provide "something" because they are a real challenge on the right maps. And pure loot is really not the answer to a "rewarding experience" for most.

Peace,

-Boem-

While i do like the general concept.
giving a flat % bonus to div cards wil probably screw a bit with drop rates.
a map with only rare div cards will always be rolled with dubbel beyond then.
the only way to avoid this is giving a multiplier. (500% increased chance of divination card for instance)
but that will most likely result in the same cries strongboxes got with the 2000% rarity of items.

'I HAD NO DIV CARD EVEN WITH DUBBLE BEYOND GGG PLS FIX DROP RATES'

even tough they are in a map with only brittle emporer as div card drop and they shouldn't ever expect to see it.
people still will expect.
they will even feel entitled for that drop because they put currency in it.

So several days ago one of my real-life friends, who doesn't play Path of Exile at all, over-the-shouldered me typing up a nice long post on this thread.

And they say, "so, um, you used this formula a lot?"

To which I reply, "no, it's horrible, why would I?"

To which they say, "well, if you haven't used it, how can you really complain about it so much?"

And in the ensuing conversation, the 3:1 Map Vendor Formula Challenge was born. I played a Warbands character (a new reroll, already had one) and ran nothing but unidentified maps, created with the 3:1 formula, with the character. Granted, I didn't get too far along, not what I'd consider a full test or a challenge completion or anything like that, but one thing is abundantly clear even early on (and since I just rolled a new Tempest character, the Challenge is going to have to wait)...

The 3:1 formula is actually very fucking good for low level maps (up to converting 72s to 73s; maybe 74s too, needs more testing). As in the "why on earth wouldn't you use this 100% of the time?" good.

The reason is: unidentified maps are fucking awesome. The +30% quantity is just really, really good.

So, um, start using the formula. Naow.

As a result of all this, I feel obligated to change the title of the OP and edit the suggestion somewhat. It should not be just any two maps equals a new, unidentified magic or rare map as output; 3:1 is perfectly fine for that trade. Converting two maps which are already unidentified to a single map of +1 level, however, still seems like a good balance to me.

As far as white maps go, it's not clear, but spending 3 Transmutes seems like a supremely small fee to get the unidentified upgrade chain going, and even adding a single Scouring to that fee at the end of the line to get maximum Chisel value still isn't an outrageous cost. The white map formula can probably remain at 3:1. So all I'm arguing for at this point is...

2 unidentified magic maps of same base -> 1 unidentified magic map of +1 level
2 unidentified rare maps of same base -> 1 unidentified rare map of +1 level

Yes, the vendor is very good as soon as you start generating more maps than you can sell. This is why I said such a change would result in a massive amount of maps being vendored, even high level. The current drop rates ensure some variety in high level mapping, you will be doing tilesets in the 78-82 range and an easy recipe would reduce variety a lot.

3 alchs are usually cheaper than 4 chisels past the very start of the league. I trade up my disgusting map types into unid maps regularly (Underground Rivers, Malformations and Residences mainly, plus Dark Forests into unid Gorges because Gorges are awesome to run even on very high levels).