Damage Conversion and Increased Damage - Question.

[New to thread? It is solved, but the further topic is a Hybrid Glacial Hammer + Flame Totem build and questions regarding that]

So I read through the internet to find an answer, but people "know" it different, that means one side is wrong, and the scholar (me) is confused.
My question is about Conversion Skills and increasing their Damage.

Simplified Example
A Attack-Skill:
"50% of Physical Damage Converted to Cold Damage"
So: 50% physical damage, 50% cold damage.

Assuming a 100 physical damage weapon.
Now let's say we get +100% physical damage from strength and passives.
2 Possibilities of end damage:

Version A)
According to some guy on reddit (and I also read it somewhere else):

"

increasing the physical damage by 8%, which is then converted or added as extra [not a quote: fire] damage.

Increasement came first, so we do 200 physical damage (not converted yet).
Then Conversion:
50% phys -> 100 phys dam.
50% cold -> 100 cold dam.

Version B)
Other say, for instance some youtubers, the damage is increased after conversion:
Conversion first:
50% phys -> 50 phys dam.
50% cold -> 50 cold dam.
Increased:
50 phys -> 100 phys dam.
50 cold -> 50 cold dam.

I hope I made this question simple enough. And not to offend, but please answer if you know it for sure :)

Ok so the simplest i can explain it:

Conversion applies before damage increase of any kind happens, but before "Added as X" is applied.
Converted damage retains ALL modifier tags from the converted damage base, as does the added as X damage.

So chain of operation is:
Added As X => Conversions => sum of all Increased/Decrease Modifiers => More/Less Modifier => More/Less modifiers => .... => last More/Less modifier

*disclaimer: added as and conversions can be a bit tricky, i won't claim i know the exact order of their execution, i edited this to comply with Vipermagi since he has been known to be right :D

So for example:

100 phys hit
40% conversion to fire
20% of phys added as cold

100% increased physical
50% increased fire
50% increased elemental
50% increased cold

Resulting damage:

1) Added as cold:
Base damage: 100[physical] * 0.20 [added as factor]
= 20 base cold damage, affected by both increased physical and elemental/cold modifiers.
Physical modifier was carried over from the base [physical]

Total damage from this is:
20 * [1.0 + 1.0(increased physical) + 0.5(increased elemental) + 0.5(increased cold)] = 20*3.0 = 60 total cold damage

2) Conversions:

Converted from physical damage, so we will get the "physical" tag added to the increased/decreased damage sum.

0.4 * 100 = 40 base fire damage
40 * [1.0 + 1.0(increased physical) + 0.5(increased elemental) + 0.5(increased fire)] = 40*3.0 = 120 total fire damage



3) Unconverted damage:
60 * [1.0 + 1.0(increased physical)] = 60*2.0 = 120

4) Total damage:
120 physical
120 fire
60 cold

Ok, understood. Thanks for the comprehensive answer. By the way: It is the advanced result of Version A but another explanation and chain of operations.

"

Converted damage retains ALL modifier tags from the converted damage base

Note: I really didn't think phys% would increase the elemental damage even the added one, that's cool to me being a spellcaster usually :P So I mostly want extra %phys for a conversion build. On the flip side, that's too bad because I planned to do a melee/spell hybrid with alot of elemental nodes :/

"

rusher21 wrote:

Ok. Thanks for the comprehensive answer. By the way: It is the advanced result of Version A but another explanation and chain of operations.

Note: I really didn't think phys% would increase the elemental damage even the added one, that's cool to me being a spellcaster usually :P

If phys% wouldn't increase the elemental damage (added one) then it would either have multiplicative scaling due to it applying increased modifiers twice, or would have really low scaling because it would scale off the damage before increase values so you would get really low yields.

The "tags" as i mention them is the easiest for you to understand the mechanic.
Conversions and Added As modify damage and add tags to parts of the damage which are being converted and added, making them either easier or harder to scale, depending on build.

EDIT:

I modified my answer, conversions should apply before "Added As" goes. Edit: Changed it back as Vipermagi suggested.

Edit2:

Well you can use elemental damage to scale damage, if you convert all phys to elemental it would be as effective.

That being said physical damage has it's benefits:
* Easier leech
* Less elemental reflect
* Not reduced by resists
* Generally better nodes

Also the correct version is that indeed:

Other say, for instance some youtubers, the damage is increased after conversion

It is, tho you need to factor in that the damage "tags" carry over.

If damage increase applied BEFORE conversions, imagine if you will:

1000 base physical
100% increased elemental
100% increased physical
50% physical converted to lighting

First we increase it:
1000 * [1.0 + 1.0] = 2000 base physical

Conversions:
1000 base physical
1000 base lightning

How it is:

1000 base physical conversion:
500 base physical [physical]
500 base lighting [physical, lightning, elemental]

Increased modifiers:

Physical: 500 * [1.0 + 1.0(inc. phys)] = 1000 physical
Lighting: 500 * [1.0 + 1.0(inc. phys) + 1.0(inc. elemental)] = 1500 lightning damage

Total damage:
1000 physical
1500 lightning

"

Mannoth wrote:

If phys% wouldn't increase the elemental damage (added one) then it would either have multiplicative scaling due to it applying increased modifiers twice, or would have really low scaling because it would scale off the damage before increase values so you would get really low yields.

I don't understand. How would it apply twice?

About the low scaling, yea I thought you could only increase one side of the spell individually: 50% of the Phys to increase the phys part to improve its benefits like life/mana leech. Or the elemental side through elemental nodes. So that you had to decide. That's of course weaker.

p.s. I read your edits 1 and 2. Ok.

"

rusher21 wrote:

"

Mannoth wrote:

If phys% wouldn't increase the elemental damage (added one) then it would either have multiplicative scaling due to it applying increased modifiers twice, or would have really low scaling because it would scale off the damage before increase values so you would get really low yields.

I don't understand. How would it apply twice?

About the low scaling, yea I thought you could only increase one side of the spell individually: 50% of the Phys to increase the phys part to improve its benefits like life/mana leech. Or the elemental side through elemental nodes. So that you had to decide. That's of course weaker.

p.s. I read your edits 1 and 2. Ok.

Well example of multiplicative scaling would be if it worked like this:

@Vipermagi

It can get really complicated explaining it, especially when you factor in Atziri flask, the new gems which add damage from phys and so much conversions we have now :P

I think my explanation with tags cover everything quite nice, but then again you are probably right because of stuff like Pyre.

But then again it can all get so complicated :P.

"

Mannoth wrote:

"

rusher21 wrote:

"

Mannoth wrote:

If phys% wouldn't increase the elemental damage (added one) then it would either have multiplicative scaling due to it applying increased modifiers twice, or would have really low scaling because it would scale off the damage before increase values so you would get really low yields.

I don't understand. How would it apply twice?

About the low scaling, yea I thought you could only increase one side of the spell individually: 50% of the Phys to increase the phys part to improve its benefits like life/mana leech. Or the elemental side through elemental nodes. So that you had to decide. That's of course weaker.

p.s. I read your edits 1 and 2. Ok.

Well example of multiplicative scaling would be if it worked like this:

Spoiler

(((base physical * [physical modifiers]) * X[added as / conversion factor] ) * [elemental modifiers]

Now imagine you had:
1000 base physical damage
100% increase damage
200% increased elemental damage
100% increased physical damage
50% converted to lightning

This would translate to (1000 * (1.0 + 1.0 [increased damage] + 1.0[increased phys.]) = 3000 base physical.

Now we convert it:
1500 physical
1500 lighting

And now we apply the damage increase to lighting.
See this is what makes it multiplicative:

1500 lightning * (1.0 + 1.0[increased damage] + 2.0[increased elemental]) = 6000 lighting damage

And you would end up with:
1500 physical
6000 lighting damage

Your [increased damage] modifier applied twice, and some of the damage modifiers multiplied with others, which never actually happens.

As you can see this makes scaling rather extreme, as is therefore NOT how it actually works.
I cannot stress enough how sad i am when i see highly followed builds on class forums spread false information around conversions and "added as" and damage modifiers.

How it would work in reality:
1000 base physical damage
100% increase damage
200% increased elemental damage
100% increased physical damage
50% converted to lightning

Conversions:
500 physical [physical]
500 lighting [physical, lighting, elemental]

Increase damage:

physical: 500 * (1.0 + 1.0[inc. damage] + 1.0[inc. phys]) = 1500 total physical damage
lighting: 500 * (1.0 + 1.0[inc. damage] + 1.0[inc. phys] + 2.0[inc elemental]) = 2500 total lighting damage

As you can see instead of having 6000 total lighting damage we end up with 2500.

OK. Not a 100% sure how you came to the multiplicative formular, but no need to explain, I got the other stuff, (you can howeer if you want). I'd rather make a build for my style of play now.

By the way: Any ideas on an elemental Melee/Flame Totem Templar?
Here is my earlier thread, when I was unsure about the conversion stuff...


So from your previous posts I looked up more conversion skills. For Glacial Hammer (50% convert) I needed to add "Physical to lightning" and I would have a 100% elemental damage attack. Now all elemental nodes I would get would not only increase my melee attack but also my Flame Totem. However I am not sure if you could survive; I needed ES and or Life, and armor wouldn't help so much vs reflect.
So I created a direction of a build, just a concept:



The most valuable Melee/Flametotem build would possibly be a Fire Melee Attack (Like Infernal Blow) with Flame Totem, so I would only have to concentrate on Physical and Fire Damage, possibly Avatar of Fire for 100% conversion - with the consequences of missing physical damage (and reflect enemies)... However I would prefer some glacial hammer action, because - to be honest - I like the sound of it and I like enemies being weaker. I also like having more than one element. (And of course as mentioned several times, not pure melee)
[I didn't look into a build here yet]

p.s. The builds might look noobish, but I actually played 2 spellcasters slightly exotic, I just try to build that exotic templar now, and I am not sure how, because I never played a melee!

If you wanted to go for maximum effect with glacial hammer and flame totem you would use:

Glacial Hammer + Phys to Lighting to convert 100% phys to elemental, then scale both the damage of totem and your melee attack with pure elemental nodes.

You would skip the %phys nodes as they would do nothing for your totem and try to get WED on rings/belt/amulet with a Doryani Catalyst (BIS for builds which convert most damage to elemental for 1h).


The tree you linked (2nd link) looks ok, i would drop the Storm Weaver circle and cataclyse and put that into more life nodes.
Also unspec the first 4 ES nodes from witch start and spec them into Melding for both ES and Life.

Edit:

Something like this is more likeable:

https://poebuilder.com/character/AAAAAgYARXyXl_v1tDjlGYw2Av7fhBOepJFQQhzcLUcqU2KVsnC0DJMnGmzqug18V8ko-rEFuNCBr9o6-eiCx_fBxq63PkGHU6UMXxyn42oWbySqNulmnvrSPC1o8q9sTP-iAPAf4XPtIIKbmjvsOJBVJy_AGnGFsULzEUbXVynauRo4PAXvfJ_fwGYEs7aGlnRyqcT2fNn3Mn31VUth4ha_JpWDCUZxnjyMdg2NbAttGSL02VsRUDW5pyuX9FJTPV9JsdfP-TfviP4K2L064fJFakPAVAj0

The totem nodes are a waste because if you are going melee you will be taking the hits anyway, not the totem.
Cataclyse would only affect your melee hits not the totem so you can skip it.
I unspecced the life&mana regen on templar and went for more life&mana on witch area.

Has a lot more life% which you will need.