[outdated] Caustic Arrow Solo Map MFer (20/300+)

Well I think you just answered the question of the guy above me, and to continue on that note, the new support gems have to be far more than 42% better than support gems that you currently would use for this build.

The reality is that the new gems probably mean nothing for people that don't have a 6-link since slower projectiles and concentrated effect are still going to be the most effective gems to use. This give you the potential for two more supports on a 5-link which is a reasonable end game for most people. Previously those would probably increased AoE and item rarity. So from the looks of this one of the new supports has to be FAR better than increased AoE to be worth it.

Edit: Stupid math time

if the old PA did 100 damage

old build would do 420 damage
new build would do 278.4 damage

this is based on the numbers found in the first post on page 1 comparing the 2.0 build to the 2.1 build. The new build would have to increase damage by around 630% in order to break even with the old PA.

Heavily nerfed it is. So is PA now joining the ranks of cleave and spectral throw in the dumpster? Yeah I think it is.

Keep in mind "reduced" is not "less", that's going to be key for me being able to predict the Talisman DPS.

Once I figure out how to math that out properly :P If someone wants to assist on how an additive reduction would look like compared to a multiplicative reduction, I can tell you exactly what will or won't be necessary.

Work from a base gem damage of 2833

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Serleth wrote:

Keep in mind "reduced" is not "less", that's going to be key for me being able to predict the Talisman DPS.

Once I figure out how to math that out properly :P If someone wants to assist on how an additive reduction would look like compared to a multiplicative reduction, I can tell you exactly what will or won't be necessary.

Work from a base gem damage of 2833

2833 is a level 28 gem? Do you really get it that high?

Anyway the reduction of 42% is at gem level 20, the higher you go the worse off you are going to be, so I think that until we see how the gem scales beyond 20 we wont know what were looking at.

That kind of reduction at level 20 would take the 947.42 down to 549.5

I'm guessing that it won't continue to be reduced by more than 42% past level 20, otherwise even with the new support gem and tree options it'd be pointless to play it.

Alright I'm going to watch a couple tv shows then I get into the math but expectation is that with at least one of either Void Manipulation or Rapid Decay, it'll end up being fine.

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Serleth wrote:

I'm guessing that it won't continue to be reduced by more than 42% past level 20, otherwise even with the new support gem and tree options it'd be pointless to play it.

Alright I'm going to watch a couple tv shows then I get into the math but expectation is that with at least one of either Void Manipulation or Rapid Decay, it'll end up being fine.

Well with a 42% reduction you need to add almost double the added damage that you had previously just to break even. So the new tree need to supply more, which it doesn't (your old build is 320% damage and your new one is 380% damage) and the new support gems need to add that much more over the existing support gems.

So those new support gems need to add double the damage that slower projectiles, concentrated effect, increased AoE or empower adds and I don't see it doing that. It won't even be close.

did someone sketch dps for new chaos skill?

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mezmery wrote:

did someone sketch dps for new chaos skill?

No one will have real numbers until it is released and someone can check their leveled gems.

I'm sure a few guesses will end up here soon enough though.

Okay, so this is an extremely rough estimate with quick math but

2.0 tooltip: about 29k damage (with 7 frenzy, golem)
2.0 actual damage: roughly 48k

2.1 tooltip: about 18.5-19k damage (with frenzy & golem)
2.1 actual: about 30-31k

Assuming void manipulation scales identically like slower proj with 10% increased damage on quality and 29% MORE damage on base at level 20

2.1 actual (swapping AoE gem for Void Manipulation): ~ 34-36k dps

So even with the gem change and getting rid of AoE, we stand to lose about 14k dps in a finished build.

KEEP IN MIND, this is completely guess-work and unknowable until the patch actually goes live.

The long and the short of it is that this build will be fine for regular mapping and even 78-80 maps, and regular Atziri, but it's probably dead for Uber Atziri and 81+ maps.

Who knows. Those are my preliminary thoughts anyway. Regardless, I'm confident in this build still being strong for MFing and mid to low-high tier maps. Regardless, I will continue to investigate this and other options.

REGULAR Poison Arrow, however, will be completely fine. So for those of you looking to run PA in a non-MF spec, you're good to go, because you will also get the advantage of being able to run Rapid Decay as your 6L, and just dropping the AoE gem.

Because we want to run IIR though, the only way to do is successfully and keep the damage comparable in the MF setup is to sacrifice a shitload on gear, including replacing the rare gloves with Aurseize, to get back up to 300% IIR before the IIR gem, but then the whole point of the build (aka, survivable, good damage, good MF combination) becomes pointless, since you'll always be at like... max, 4k life.

Also, keep in mind

* I haven't factored in Wither, which should operate much like Vulnerability and provide a multiplicative damage boost. We just don't know how that functions yet.
* This also does not account for the fact that the other support gems (Rapid Decay, Void Manipulation) might actually scale more powerfully than Slower Projectiles
* This assumes the 42% reduction is static past gem level 20. It might be more, it might be less.

I see, thanks for the quick thoughts!

If this nerf only being rather harsh on top-tier content (Uber, T14/15) we might actually see a decrease in popularity if streamers are not running CA for that race to Uber / T14 and 15 clears.

Please, keep in mind we get another 'chaos damage taken' multiplier akin to Vulnerability. It's not in the 5L/6L in our bow, it's with the all-new Wither skill. I will use it in Spell Totem - Faster Casting - Wither (Totem Life/AoE) in a 3L or 4L, depending on what will be easier to execute for really tough enemies.

If we assume Wither has the same values as Vuln (33% more), we regain a lot from the difference in DPS (30k + 10k = 40k, roughly).

Concerning the Aurseize / IIR debate: hum.. what a dilemma :S