[1.1.X] Raging Spirits/Animated Weapons Summoner (with a video)

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wooli wrote:

Looking at some of the comparisons I'm starting to think totem is still better in most situations.. if you consider:

1) Having to stand still and cast = not moving onto the next group of mobs
2) Selfcasted spirits start off next to you and have to walk to the next mob, reducing time spent attacking. Compared to being able to drop a totem right next to a mob (especially invun totems)

In situations where you can stand still and spam RS (some boss where you don't need to dodge their attacks?), then I can imagine self casted will kill faster

In summary -> utility/flexibility vs raw damage potential

I disagree. Best way to convince you though would be to post a video. I'll do that soon.

Things to keep in mind :

-Self-Cast RS deal double the damage of RS from totems.
-You can spam them out "much" faster without totems, particularly in the first 4-5 seconds. (and most fights last less than 4-5 seconds)
-With the right gear and passives, you can summon 6-7 RS in 2 seconds. That's usually the most RS I'm gonna spam in one spot, unless its a boss fight and I'm in a safe spot.
-Most of the time, I stop for 1.2 second, spam 4 RS, then move on.

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That being said, I'm not saying RS totem builds aren't good. Its just a different playstyle with pros and cons.

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BisuProbe wrote:

actually i question the need for a longer duration gem for raging spirits.

like you said most fights last a few seconds except for tough rares and bosses. all the increased duration gem does is to increase the number of raging spirits on the field over the long term. considering the short base duration the gem at most provide a few more seconds, for a rather heavy 1.5 mana multiplier cost.

and when u are transitioning from mobs to mobs you would probably be stopping to pick up items, use animate weapons etc. so the spirits dont last that long even with the gem anyway.

furthermore even against bosses there are many who can easily wipe out a whole lot of raging spirit in a single AOE shot, so the increased duration gem is kinda pointless then. i would rather just focus on short term damage replacing increased duration with other gem like melee physical, multistrike, faster attack etc.

the 3 nodes that increase skill duration at scion tree bottom shld be sufficient enough (as it also benefits animated weapon)

Without Increased Duration, Raging Spirit duration is 5 seconds. With Increased duration, its 7.7 seconds. A pretty big difference if you ask me. Its true that in some circumstances, it doesn't matter much. But for most content, I find it helpful, as the raging spirit keep attacking until they run out of time (or are they?). I may try out another support gem and check the results for myself. I'll post my findings.

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BisuProbe wrote:

pretty slow to level with this build. it only starts to shine once you get the auras going, otherwise flameblast/searing bond is much faster for lvling, using the summons for support.
and i think melee splash is needed to clear big mobs faster due to lack of aoe

I also think Melee Splash makes a big difference and its very helpful in many situations, particularly against large groups of mobs or special situation (monkeys, skeletons/necro, spawns, cannot die totem, etc.)

In term of leveling speed, I find it normal at low level compare to other builds I tried. At higher level 65+, I find that I clear maps faster and easier than with most of my other builds. I also have an easier time to kill some bosses that were much harder or impossible to kill with other builds, such as Villa boss, Labyrinth boss, Temple boss, etc. I suspect level 74 Residence boss will be soloable too (if merciless Dominus is any indication).

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MatrixFactor wrote:

TYVM for your answer and especially for sharing your spreadsheets Velkor.

I used it to calculate the best auras and 4L setup for 3-totem based on number of spirits up and their damage. Here is my modified spreadsheet. My base stats are 62% Aura Effect, 105% Minion Dmg, and 20% Minion Atk Speed. I used L17/Q0 gems for everything. My conclusion is best 4L is Melee Phys Dmg + Inc Dura + FCR run with Hatred+Haste (44.3k DPS). This is slightly better than Multistrike + Melee Phys Dmg + Inc Dura run with Hatred+Haste (42.6k DPS). Both are much better than MS+MD+Dura (37.65k) or MS+FCR+Dura (37.62k). If you can only afford 1 Dmg Aura make it Hatred, and stick with MPD+Dura+FCR (32.5k).

One thing I didn't account for at all is the 50% damage converted to fire damage, as I'm unsure how that mechanic works. If my base is 100 Phys dmg, do I now get 100 Phys+50 Fire Dmg all modified by phys dmg modifiers, or do I get 50Phys and 50Fire Dmg? Looking at Velkor's spreadsheet it seems it's 50/50, but since the fire dmg is modified by physical mods, we can treat it as if it was just 100 phys.

Also as Velkor suggests, EE seems to be a must. It seems a huge waste not to trigger EE since minions don't trigger it and we can increase cold dmg for all our minions as well as fire dmg for RS. What are our best options? Arc+FCR+Reduced Mana? Or shock nova+trap? Storm call? Can we even proc EE with ancestral bond?

In my opinion, the best option to trigger EE for a build that use Hatred/Anger (or only Hatred) is Spell Totem + Arc + Faster Casting. If you want to use 4th support, it could be Blind (especially if you have decent Evasion) or Added Lighting damage for increased chance to shock.

If Arc is cast from a totem, it works with Ancestral Bond.

I'm wondering what are the chance to shock with Arc with this setup though. If you use a high level Arc with Added Lightning damage (both at 20% quality), the chance to shock is theoretically 30% (not including the 4% chance to crit). At gem level 20, the damage (58-1092) might be high enough to shock for a decent duration at least half of the time. But for that, you need to level up Arc to level 20 (32 mana). With spell totem, faster casting and Added Lighting, that means 144 mana per cast. Can the build afford it ? Otherwise, you could simply forget the chance to shock and use a level 1 Arc (12 mana) supported by Faster Casting and Spell totem for a mana cost of 36 mana. If you want to hit more target, Its more efficient to use a level 11 Arc (24 mana) than using Chain. Level 11 Arc, supported by Spell totem and Faster Casting will cost 72 mana. Level 1 Arc, Supported by Spell Totem, Faster Casting and Chain will also use 72 mana but deal much less damage and use an extra support gem.

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure that posting it in your self-cast thread is ideal. To be clear my post is about a tri-totem raging spirit summoner in the tri-totem thread. Using a totem to proc EE doesn't work in this case.

Also I believe in your spreadsheet you didn't multiply hatred by 50%, which I believe you should be doing due to 50% converted to fire. Was that on purpose or a mistake?

As far as I know the Hatred damage isn't affected by the conversion to Fire Damage.

Both are based off the initial physical damage (100 Physical Damage, 50% Convert to Fire, +50% Cold) should be 150 Damage (50 of each), not 125.

I could be wrong but this can be tested easily enough using Infernal Blow:

Take a character with no:
- +% Fire/Elemental Damage
- +% Cold/Elemental Damage
- +x-y Elemental Damage

A summoner would typically work for this since the nodes aren't needed for the build.

Equip a weapon, look at normal attack damage
Add Hatred, look at cold and physical damage
Equip Level 1 Infernal Blow -> If Cold damage decreases then conversion affects later (Added +% Damage from Hatred or Added Fire). If Cold Damage Stays the same, then the full physical damage is used for calculations (just what is output as what changes).

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure that posting it in your self-cast thread is ideal. To be clear my post is about a tri-totem raging spirit summoner in the tri-totem thread. Using a totem to proc EE doesn't work in this case

If you want to use all 3 totems for RS, then your only option are traps or mines. Your best bet is probably Lightning Trap linked with Chain and possibly Multiple Traps.

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Also I believe in your spreadsheet you didn't multiply hatred by 50%, which I believe you should be doing due to 50% converted to fire. Was that on purpose or a mistake?

It was on purpose. Hatred damage in based on 100% of RS damage which is physical originally. For this calculation, Like Zinsho said, it doesn't matter if 50% of RS damage is converted to fire.

Ok I was able to find this post https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/60906 that seems to confirm (not GGG though) what you're saying about Hatred's effect in relation to converted damage. This is good news.

I'm curious if anyone reading has implemented this whole gem/aura thing as a optimization problem? Simply having an integer program output an answer would be simpler than going through all the possibilities in the spreadsheet. Edit: here it is.

Edit: What about damage effectiveness? Is it reasonable to assume that Wrath/Anger are affected by a 70% penalty on the absolute damage they add but the percent increase of Hatred isn't subject to the same 70% penalty?

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MatrixFactor wrote:

What about damage effectiveness? Is it reasonable to assume that Wrath/Anger are affected by a 70% penalty on the absolute damage they add but the percent increase of Hatred isn't subject to the same 70% penalty?

Damage effectiveness, for Raging Spirit and other skills, apply to flat damage only.

So, it apply to +flat damage from weapons, equipment (typically rings, amulets and gloves), support gems (such as added chaos damage and added lightning damage) and auras such as Wrath and Anger. It doesn't apply to the flat damage of spells anymore. Flat damage from Spells with damage effectiveness penalty have been adjusted down accordingly. And the opposite is true for spells with damage effectiveness bonus (such as Bear Trap).

Since Raging Spirit is a spell, Added Fire or Hatred aren't not affected by the 70% damage penalty. For any attack skills such as Sweep (75%), Groundslam (80%) or Heavy Strike (150%), Added Fire and Hatred are indirectly affected by damage effectiveness because Weapons and Equipment are affected.

Btw, one thing I didn't consider in my Hatred vs Wrath comparisons are the Status Ailments.

Hatred adds a chance to freeze and chill while Wrath adds a chance to shock.

Even if the chances to shock or freeze is not very high for each individual Raging Spirit (5%), the attack speed (3.1 attack per second) and the number of Spirit make it an important factor.

Let's consider 10 Raging Spirits. I consider this number of Spirit to be very easy to reach and maintain (it takes a little bit more than 3 seconds to summon 10 RS with my self-casting build).

So, together, 10 Raging Spirits can potentially attack 31 times per second. Each times with 5% chance to Shock or Freeze depending of the Aura used (Wrath or Hatred). So, how does it translate in terms of chance to Shock/Freeze ? About 79% chance to crit per second, so 79% chance to Shock/Hatred.

Since a Shocked Target take 30% more damage, I think we can safely say that, all other things being equal, Wrath will be superior to Hatred in term of dps because of chance to shock.

However, Freeze targets can't fight back and Chilled targets have reduced attack/movement speed, so this is also useful. Its obviously useful defensively but also offensively if it means Raging Spirits can survive longer. However, the opposite could be said about Shock. If it allows RS to kill monsters faster, it will also let them survive longer.

Anyway, its just another layer of complexity that could be considered in the analysis.

The best way to compare them both auras would probably be to test their clear speed in a controlled environment. That's easier said than done though....