[1.1.X] Raging Spirits/Animated Weapons Summoner (with a video)

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Zinsho wrote:

Calculating on Animate Weapons is slightly harder since they are % of base damage, rather than fixed damage.

However:
Level 20 Wrath + 70% effectiveness = 255 average damage per hit
Level 20 Anger + 70% effectiveness = 212.5 average damage per hit
Level 20 Hatred + 70% Effectiveness = 61% Added Cold

Level 20 Animate Weapon deals 252% of base damage + 38-56 Damage
With 105% Minion Damage (full tree): 517% of base damage and 78-115 Extra
Extra damage works out to 59 Cold damage per hit (average from Hatred)
Base Damage converts to 316% of base damage as cold damage.

To match Wrath in added damage by using hatred, weapon must deal 62 average damage per hit (before animating)
To match Anger -> 48.5 average per hit.

Where do you get the 70% damage effectiveness of Animated Weapons ? I don't see this information in the gem or in the wiki :

Animate Weapon

Sorry, by +70% effectiveness I mean the extra 70% from Aura Effectiveness you've mentioned before. I'm simply increasing the aura damage from the outset.

Edit: Of course those values I provided are skewed since they are based on no extra physical damage increases from other gems. Adding those will actually increase the benefit of Hatred (since the physical damage to be converted will be increased all the more)

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Zinsho wrote:

Sorry, by +70% effectiveness I mean the extra 70% from Aura Effectiveness you've mentioned before. I'm simply increasing the aura damage from the outset.

Edit: Of course those values I provided are skewed since they are based on no extra physical damage increases from other gems. Adding those will actually increase the benefit of Hatred (since the physical damage to be converted will be increased all the more)

Another thing to consider though is the +2 to aura gem from Alpha's Howl and the possibility to corrupt aura gems. I already have a level 21 wrath gem :



So, lets just compare level 23 Wrath with level 23 Hatred :

Level 23 Wrath : 188 avg damage x 70% aura effect = 320 added lightning damage.

Level 23 Hatred : 37% added cold dmg x 70% aura effect = 63% added cold damage


According to my calculations, to get 320 added cold damage from a weapon, the weapon must deal an average of 56 damage :

56.5 damage x 2.52 (lvl 20 Animate Weapon Multi) = 142 + 47 (flat dmg from lvl 20 AW) = 189.4 x 268% (increased dmg from Multistrike, passives and gear) = 507.5 x 63% (from Hatred) = 320

So, the question is : What's the average weapon dmg in maps ? Is it lower than 56 ? If yes, Wrath will be better. If not, Hatred will be better.

So, what's the average dmg of weapons in maps ?. All 2h weapons, except very low level weapons, have a higher base dmg than 56. But most 1h weapons, especially daggers, sword and claws, have lower a base damage lower than 56.

That's assuming the use of Weapon Elemental Damage, not Melee Physical Damage.

I'll have to do the calculation with Melee Physical Damage.

I've got a question about EE. I get that if YOU hit them with elemental damage (cold) the enemy resis drops 50% for fire and lightning. What happens when it is the MINIONS that deal damage? Does EE affect the minions as well, or ONLY the caster?

Other than that, I like the life build, as that is what I am currently going. Do you think raging spirits (totem or self cast) could be used as a supporting skill for a summoner? I have a very similar set up to yours, except that I have more of the minion nodes instead of getting the increased skill duration nodes in scion tree. I haven't gone for as direct a raging spirits build yet, (my spirit is leveling up on switch) As right now I roll zombies, skeleton totem, and spectres. I originally planned to self cast them, but it feels like maybe there is too much investment to make them better than just say...getting all the aura + summon nodes.

Nice build and I like reading through this thread and bombers to see the differences in style :D Posted my tree below for reference. Thanks!

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMBB2MI9A5cEHQRlhcvGYUabBzcHpQkPCSqJ6ko-iqYL28xiDbpPI5FfkjnSVFNuVXGVdZXK1fJWm1akWTnaqxr220ZcLtzU3kDfRh-WX_GgKSCx4VgiECPRpAzkyeboZ2uoqOmrKcIp1yofarErD-0DLiTv5fAVMHzyT3MvM9l0NDT-9kL2RPa3dxX42rmgeq66-7sivF28h731_no-oD60g==

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bubblehulk wrote:

I've got a question about EE. I get that if YOU hit them with elemental damage (cold) the enemy resis drops 50% for fire and lightning. What happens when it is the MINIONS that deal damage? Does EE affect the minions as well, or ONLY the caster?

When my minions deal damage, they don't trigger EE, but they benefit from the -50% resistance to lightning and fire damage.

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Other than that, I like the life build, as that is what I am currently going. Do you think raging spirits (totem or self cast) could be used as a supporting skill for a summoner? I have a very similar set up to yours, except that I have more of the minion nodes instead of getting the increased skill duration nodes in scion tree.

I haven't gone for as direct a raging spirits build yet, (my spirit is leveling up on switch) As right now I roll zombies, skeleton totem, and spectres. I originally planned to self cast them, but it feels like maybe there is too much investment to make them better than just say...getting all the aura + summon nodes.

I think RS could work as support skill for a standard Summoner build (best way to find out is to try it). However, I think Raging Spirits really shine when you have very high casting speed which normal summoner builds typically don't have. Also, being expandable, short-live and last priority targets for monsters, they don't benefit as much as other minions from defense passives. That's why my RS passive tree include mainly offense passives for minions and almost no defense passives. Again, very different than your typical summoner passive tree.

Exactly, I started as a pure summoner, not realizing raging spirits was a thing until the quest reward. You're right though, my cast speed is sub-par, even when RS is connected with FC, both level 16. I can muster about 6-7 rs before they die. I don't think I can decide until I see haste in action. The movement speed/cast speed/attack speed seems to do triple work for this kind of strategy.

Alright, so with this discussion about the best auras and support gems for the highest dps for Raging Spirit and Animated Weapons, I was kinda puzzled.

I wasn't sure what was the best anymore. Wrath or Hatred ? What support gem ? Minion Damage or Melee Physical Damage, Multistrike or Weapon Elemental Damage ?

So, I decided to put all my data in a spreadsheet and calculate all the possible scenarios.

Here are the data/assumptions I used :

Minion damage from passives : +80%
Minion damage from gear : +15% (Silverbreath)
+Aura effect passives : +70%
Aura gems socketed in Alpha's Howl (+2 to gem level)
Auras gems have +1 from Corruption
Minion's Attack Speed from passives, Haste and Flesh Offering : +91%
1h weapons are twice as common as 2h weapons (for Animated weapon calculations)


Here are the results, in a nutshell :

For Raging Spirits :

Assuming Increased Duration, Faster Casting and Melee Splash as the first 3 support gems, Melee Physical Damage with Hatred + Anger + Haste provide the highest dps : 7,162 (to single targets) and 5,883 to splashed targets.

With 25 Raging Spirit, that means 179,050 single target dps and 147,075 aoe dps. Not bad at all.

The best support gem for the Wrath/Anger/Haste auras is Minion Damage (instead of Melee Physical Damage). It provides a dps of 6,460 per RS (to single targets) and 5,307 to splashed targets.


For Animated Weapons :

Assuming an Animated Weapon with an average attack speed of 1.28 and average damage of 67, the best combo of Auras/Support gems are Wrath + Anger + Haste and Multistrike + Weapon Elemental Damage. It provides a dps of 8,300.

Best support gems for the Hatred/Anger/Haste auras are the same : Multistrike + Weapon Elemental Damage. It provides a dps of 6,777. Quite a bit lower than the Wrath/Anger/Haste combo.


I made the calculation in a google spreadsheet so other ppl can look at the numbers for themselves. Here it is :




What does it mean ? Hatred/Anger/Haste is better for Raging Spirits but Wrath/Anger/Haste is better for Animated weapon.

Let's assume I have, on average, the same amount of Raging Spirit and Animated Weapon :

With Hatred/Anger/Haste :

Raging Spirit : 11,573 dps (25% single target, 75% two targets)
Animated Weapon : 6,777 dps

Total : 18,350

With Wrath/Anger/Haste :

Raging Spirit : 10,440 dps (25% single target, 75% two targets)
Animated Weapon : 8,300 dps

Total : 18,740

So, assuming the same amount of Raging Spirits and Animated Weapons, Wrath is slightly better than Hatred. For Hatred to be better than Wrath, you need more Raging Spirits than Animated Weapons.

So, I think I'll stick with Wrath for now.

Looking at some of the comparisons I'm starting to think totem is still better in most situations.. if you consider:

1) Having to stand still and cast = not moving onto the next group of mobs
2) Selfcasted spirits start off next to you and have to walk to the next mob, reducing time spent attacking. Compared to being able to drop a totem right next to a mob (especially invun totems)

In situations where you can stand still and spam RS (some boss where you don't need to dodge their attacks?), then I can imagine self casted will kill faster

In summary -> utility/flexibility vs raw damage potential

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BisuProbe wrote:

hi

feel like an interesting build that i would like to try. thing is i prefer to have a defensive aura (grace/determination/discipline) if i take it up to hc. i probably drop wrath, what do you think velkor. i would say, tweak your skill tree a bit to take IR and use grace for some defense of course dps would be compromised

According to my calculation, Wrath provide much more dps than Haste. About 1000 dps per RS. However, Haste increase the moving speed and the casting time which allow to summon RS faster. I haven't take the time to calculate how it can impact the dps, but I doubt its enough to compensate the 1000 dps difference.

So, if you want to drop one of the offensive auras, I would drop Haste for Grace. The advantage is you can switch Haste and Grace depending of the content. Also, instead of getting IR, I would consider blinding your targets instead. I started doing it with my Ice spear totem :



Against Blinded targets, my chance to evade is like 80%. Imagine if I was using Grace instead of Haste.

Also, keep in mind that you basically have 40% damage reduction already thanks to Cloak of Defiance.

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and for single targets like rares or bosses, it would be better to use multistrike(or melee physical) instead of melee splash? i would interchange the gems depending on the situation without 6l.

You're right, against hard bosses without adds, switching Melee Splash for Multistrike would be a good idea. I'm planning to do it.