Open Letter to Qarl, regarding topics discussed in RMT thread

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dessloc wrote:

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morbo wrote:

The same as with trading - nowhere is explained that the whole game is actually cantered around it.

http://www.pathofexile.com/game

Exile Yourself to the Unforgiving Continent of Wraeclast!

Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races. The game is completely free and will never be "pay to win".

This, too:

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Chris wrote:

Path of Exile’s economy is the most important element of the game to us.

I might as well quote this little gem too, as it's really rather relevant:

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Chris wrote:

Some players immediately use all their currency items on the spot to improve their character. These players generally have quite powerful characters and items, but are always low on actual currency items to trade. They’re often seen trading powerful upgraded items for currency, in an attempt to reroll/upgrade other items and fuel their addiction.

No, Chris. This isn't the case, not any longer, not for some time.

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a strong barter-based online item economy

A short sentence that expalains exactly nothing...

Nowhere is explained that progression is slow and painfull without trading, that self-found is almost unviable, that even skills/gems must be bought, that game content is gated behind trading, etc...

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morbo wrote:

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a strong barter-based online item economy

A short sentence that expalains exactly nothing...

Nowhere is explained that progression is slow and painfull without trading, that self-found is almost unviable, that even skills/gems must be bought, that game content is gated behind trading, etc...

Precise "progression from lvl ~65" please =), it's not the case before at least that ( with the exception of the cruel Dominus wall I guess ).

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ephetat wrote:

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Chris wrote:

Some players immediately use all their currency items on the spot to improve their character. These players generally have quite powerful characters and items, but are always low on actual currency items to trade. They’re often seen trading powerful upgraded items for currency, in an attempt to reroll/upgrade other items and fuel their addiction.

No, Chris. This isn't the case, not any longer, not for some time.

The original vision is really what we all want though. A meaningful choice in whether or not to use our orbs as we get them - not suboptimal and optimal strategies. The key here, I think, lies in either equalizing present sacrifice with future value, as per Scrotie and other's suggestion, or introducing mechanics that increase future value. Specifically orbs or recipes that make otherwise obsolete items potentially valuable by upgrading base type, item level, rerolling properties, property ranges or anything else deemed attractive - the idea being to impart good low level items with future value, such that they are a lucrative prospect throughout the game, even if not immediately so.

Edit: Qarl beat me while rephrasing.

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Hilbert wrote:

You think that Orbs should be used over time and not hoarded? Correct?

The specific issue being referred to was players unable to progress, where a solution was in their inventory. This is generally not a current issue. It was an issue some time ago, and I was discussing the nature of the issue as in aside in another thread.

This comment has led to more follow on discussion that I ever imagined it would.

I certainly have no issue with players having currency in their stash. In this thread it seems player indicate they keep currency because its trading value is higher than its crafting value (keeping the currency because they might want to spend it later), or because its best used in large amounts later (keeping the currency because they want to apply it to items later, in volume).

Both of these intentions indicate investment and interest in the game. I do not consider that a bad thing.

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Veta321 wrote:

The original vision is really what we all want though. A meaningful choice in whether or not to use our orbs as we get them - not suboptimal and optimal strategies. The key here, I think, lies in either equalizing present sacrifice with future value, as per Scrotie and other's suggestion, or introducing mechanics that increase future value. Specifically orbs or recipes that make otherwise obsolete items potentially valuable by upgrading base type, item level, rerolling properties, property ranges or anything else deemed attractive - the idea being to impart good low level items with future value, such that they are a lucrative prospect throughout the game, even if not immediately so.

It's interesting because Chris' anectode does tie in with Qarl's earlier comment about how items with low ilevels inherently benefit more from currency consumption on them. It's exactly what Chris was seeing during the time he was writing that article -- the ilvl ceiling was by necessity much lower than today -- and it's exactly what, again as illustrated by Qarl's comment, simply doesn't and can't hold up in today's much higher ilvl ceiling.

EDIT: Sorry about not actually addressing your point -- it goes without saying that I agree with it entirely.

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Qarl wrote:

I certainly have no issue with players having currency in their stash. In this thread it seems player indicate they keep currency because its trading value is higher than its crafting value (keeping the currency because they might want to spend it later), or because its best used in large amounts later (keeping the currency because they want to apply it to items later, in volume).

This may demonstrate a bit the convoluted nature of the topic, which I think makes it difficult for a developer to make sense of the noise. On one hand, many players are saying they do not craft because anything they want can be gotten in trade for less cost (as is the nature of a trade economy) or they don't craft until they have met certain circumstances (as is the nature of crafting). This was not under any dispute in the OP and I hope not what Qarl or anyone else takes away from the thread. The focus of this thread was the nature of crafting, specifically the determinism involved in when and how we choose to craft (or trade). This determinism serves as a noob trap and invariably turns players off from the game. Perhaps worse, it also disenchants veterans who feel they're going through the motions of an optimal strategy rather than deciding for themselves. I made the improper assumption in the OP that my motive was clear and understood, which it was not. My motive is as follows: I would like decisions regarding currency use to be less deterministic, for the value proposition of currency use to be more equalized between the present and short term future. In short, I would like currency use to be a meaningful choice, not a matter of taking the path of least resistance. And isn't that what Path of Exile is all about? Choosing your own path?

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ephetat wrote:

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Chris wrote:

Some players immediately use all their currency items on the spot to improve their character. These players generally have quite powerful characters and items, but are always low on actual currency items to trade. They’re often seen trading powerful upgraded items for currency, in an attempt to reroll/upgrade other items and fuel their addiction.

No, Chris. This isn't the case, not any longer, not for some time.

Players definitely still do this. There is a decent portion of players who do use all their currency on items, and a good portion who actively use much of their currency on items. Both these groups tend towards heavy item traders. (Not all of them though, there are those who use their currency on items and do not interact with others at all.)

You are generalising your own experience with the game to others. There are a wide variety of styles of play.

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Qarl wrote:

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ephetat wrote:

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Chris wrote:

Some players immediately use all their currency items on the spot to improve their character. These players generally have quite powerful characters and items, but are always low on actual currency items to trade. They’re often seen trading powerful upgraded items for currency, in an attempt to reroll/upgrade other items and fuel their addiction.

No, Chris. This isn't the case, not any longer, not for some time.

Players definitely still do this. There is a decent portion of players who do use all their currency on items, and a good portion who actively use much of their currency on items. Both these groups tend towards heavy item traders. (Not all of them though, there are those who use their currency on items and do not interact with others at all.)

You are generalising your own experience with the game to others. There are a wide variety of styles of play.

I should have been more clear -- I don't doubt that some people are using all their currency. But I do doubt that great items -- "powerful upgraded items" -- result from that use, such that they are able to trade them away for more currency.

I get the sense that I'm being misrepresented, especially seeing that I'm perceived as "generalizing from my own experience". Please don't do that.

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ephetat wrote:

I should have been more clear -- I don't doubt that some people are using all their currency. But I do doubt that great items result from that use, such that they are able to trade them away for more currency.

I get the sense that I'm being misrepresented, especially seeing that I'm perceived as "generalizing from my own experience". Please don't do that.

My apologies, I have no reason to assume you are. While this is something I see a lot on the forums - "All players ..." followed by information that is incorrect, I have no reason to assume this is the case here. Thanks for clarifying your comment, I had indeed read it as you saying players weren't using orbs.

There are indeed players getting improved items from crafting regularly. I won't specify great, as what people consider great varies from player to player.