Join up the Scion starting nodes please!

I had thought about changes I would make to the Scion tree before, and made this:


I'd explain my thought process here, but I'm pressed for time.

A few quick points:
-One notable-to-notable path is made one point more efficient for non-scions.
-Offers alternative-route access to cast speed, aoe, crit multi, and accuracy for non-scions
-While scion is technically less efficient at pathing from one notable to one other notable, they are still more point efficient at pathing in two directions, given an overall more efficient start.
-They are definitely still more efficient at pathing in three directions.

^The second was actually what bothered me about the current tree--that Scion is identified by not only being more point efficient at crossing the tree, but also has (basically) exclusive access to a few niche nodes, which niche builds want to minmax. This made Scion minmax^2.

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Autocthon wrote:

As long as scion dumps into a 50% life wheel....

Because the maximum amount of passive points is 25 or so?

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

the proposed change seems reasonable .

But if we remember why ggg originally changed the center then the choice seems less reasonable.

GGG wanted to discourage going through the center of the tree because it destroyed class diversity.

So in order to prevent the original six characters from going through the center and destroying class diversity...

GGG empowered the Scion to start from the center and destroy class diversity.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Invalesco wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Core complaint: Scion > Shadow
Proposed solution: Improve Scion area
*facepalm*

1st point partially correct - change to Scion > all
2nd point wrong.

Scion's area isn't improved. Scion doesn't benefit.

Your second point is partially correct; your first point is wrong. As in obviously, directly, factually wrong; you're talking about improving node connectivity in that area.

If you make the Scion area more appealing, more non-Scion characters will travel to it. This will inevitably lead to a higher concentration of characters who could interchangeably be Scions instead of another class; this in turn causes minor optimization differences to favor Scion more often.

I know you like the GR+MOM combo. But the answer isn't making the Scion area even more appealing; it's making the alternative route — mostly Ranger area — a more viable alternative.

All non-scion characters apart from witch and shadow are already travelling to it. The only reason witch and shadow are not is simply because they are being blocked off by an irrelevant ES circle which is not useful for life-based builds.

As it stands, classes such as marauder and duelist already travel through to the scion area anyway. There's no reason to alienate the other classes.

GR+MoM combo isn't really a combo - did you mean something else?

If you look at my initial examples provided - you will see that the scion version of a build that arguably should favour witches or shadows was much better.

Unfortunately, as I already mentioned - buffing any other area will just end up buffing scion and the scion will always maintain its dominance precisely because of that. As long as the scion has 6 starting points and the other classes have only 2, this won't change.

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Kenzorz wrote:

If you theorycraft some more, you'll find Scion area simply uses up too many points to get to places.

I have theorycrafted, and I don't find that that's the case. I would like to be proved wrong.

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CanHasPants wrote:

I had thought about changes I would make to the Scion tree before, and made this:

Spoiler

That does look quite alright to me. Anything apart from the current state of the tree will be an improvement.

There are already places to cross. For example here is an awesome dual wander concept. *


*Could use a critique from someone who knows more about wands ans their scaling.

Good example, Nangingg. I've seen many cases where I wanted to cherry-pick some Scion nodes, but had little use for the center circle.

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RogueMage wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

the proposed change seems reasonable .

But if we remember why ggg originally changed the center then the choice seems less reasonable.

GGG wanted to discourage going through the center of the tree because it destroyed class diversity.

So in order to prevent the original six characters from going through the center and destroying class diversity...

GGG empowered the Scion to start from the center and destroy class diversity.

HEY , no one said their logic was perfect.

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Nangingg wrote:

There are already places to cross. For example here is an awesome dual wander concept. *

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgYA_5MeGtIZ1tEqW7VI645tbG17rs9TNVVLk_ybtYw2JpWH28M6GYoWv-tjYeLKSlYt-wnz6pmaGYasf_bacFLAUbb3kvMaj-OEES-sR2NDDkiSzRGWpzQFOp2q6yydo3C7f8bFzGKsKk38q9kToqMnqYSv1p0_JxUgL2_B81ptSsgs6YPbSoyCHiQ8bqrdDfxLV4fbC6dctfL8xVuvznGArklRNZJnoE4q0O4Y22wW-u_-j6xZh3YppfejdPGiBE3jiPFKfWJ5hTKmV-djFfY64TGe_goABvJF

*Could use a critique from someone who knows more about wands ans their scaling.

You've already gone thru the evasion circle and into the circle of life. Technically speaking, you've already branched into the scion area and are a scion.

Your tree can probably use some optimisation. IMO soul siphon is not neccessary considering your mana leech.

Either way, I've tried to stick to your version of the build and did a quick rough scion version with similar damage and higher defenses/HP. With more time I can very likely come up with something much better.

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Mortox wrote:

... I've recently wanted to take advantage of the "less reserved mana" nodes, to allow me to run more auras. I've run into this issue on an Ele Reave Templar I've been playing, as well as another Marauder build. I can easily reach the mana reserve nodes to the left of Templar, but it's almost impossible to reach the ones on the right of the Scion without wasting literally dozens of points to get over there. Don't get me wrong, I understand these points are extremely useful as they can allow multi-aura builds more easily, s

Agree that is a valid complaint.

There is a 10 aura build that can be done with Witch. I posted a Scion variation :-) Pity other classes aren't as "optimal"

* [1.0.5] 10 Aura Low Life Support Culler
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/680357

Personally I think this would be the wrong approach. Easy traversing of the center is supposed to be the Scion's thing.


that said there's definitely a problem- the scion start position is so much better then any of the others. And the reason is simple: no other class really gains a non-transferable benefit to their spec from their start location. Realistically a spec that spends time in two adjacent classes areas can be replicated almost entirely in both classes with only 4-5 points iddferent, if even that.


Honestly I think every class should have something powerful about their start location that is completely unique to them. There are a few ways this could be done:

1). Give other start positions the ability to bridge some gap. For example what if each of the other 6 classes had a third start position on the interior side of the tree(opposite the other two). Perhaps marauder gets another lfie node linked directly to the big life wheel directly behind their start location. The same could be done for witch and the big ES wheel, and ranger and the big EV wheel. Duelist, Shadow, and templar would be a bit trickier(possible warranting some new nodes behidn their start locatio)- but the idea is solid. It would make for some pretty compelling reasons to choose those classes- imagine Marauder essentially having access to the big health wheel without having to traverse a long patch into the center(like the other 5 basic classes) or out of the center(like scion). While traversing the center would still be harder for other classes then the scion, the other classes could be given easy access to key node snear the center without needing to invest much to "get there".


2). Create class-specific nodes that are linked to class start positions and nothing else. This is probably a lazy solution, but it would certainly add a quantifiable long term significance in class choice. Of course you don't want to make these nodes complete nobrainers(then you have false-choice, which is bad)- so perhaps stats only really useful to certain builds(such as AoE radius, projectile speed, skill duration, bonuses to mana/regen, aura related nodes ect...) or a few new keystones.