Join up the Scion starting nodes please!

"

Invalesco wrote:

Nice try, however yours is a niche build. The game should be balanced around the main builds not around the niche builds. Not to say that your build isn't effective. It very likely is, and is also unique.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm not sure what you mean by "niche". Wands and traps are both mainstream tools of the trade for Witches and Shadows.

"

However, even for a build as niche as this, the scion version (below) is also on par if not better. Also, the amount of life you got is not very high.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31vKXkzrbWZtdvSctqBg8sZD56IMJQYdGcbc-tAz-CpMn8kXnY9xXHNw64YjxHpR_xqZXrFmsPyepEZaiozGeNZJabQ5IcLvB8yQ844TZE20ZSoynXIhr7hUvby0fjjxXh0lRNj2297d1j6YXVICupcuZmhEvUlNEqyKB-u8M8utjl5U9X1WuogQFtQQHLJyNv8UoUUf2Wz7PMHyquFm8veZ_K6p_MYl319aKjX1hseNWkA10QeTrM3ikwk665zob4OwYw20=

For the scion life cluster:
5 x 8% = 40% incr. life for scion
4 x 8% = 32% incr. life for scion

For others:
5 nodes to get to 8-8-18 cluster = 34% incr. life
4 points to get to 8-8-12 cluster = 28% incr. life

Sorry, but your Increased Life numbers don't measure up. If you consider my build's 175% Increased Life on the low side, your Scion would be dangerously marginal with only 151%. (However, both versions augment the Life totals with about 50% Increased ES, which is what gives the build comparable viability to a 200% Increased Life build.)

I'd also differ on your skill-point efficiency analysis. The Scion's circle of life requires 2 overhead nodes to travel from the Shaper Notable. That gives you an average of 6.8% Life per each of the 10 points it took from your build. The three Ranger clusters in my build required 3 overhead nodes, averaging 7.5% Life per point. That's what I mean by "cherry picking".

"

Shadows and witches don't usually build a tree all the way to that area.

Perhaps not, but it's a considerably shorter path than your Scion build.

"

sidtherat wrote:

...all the other, 'better' life clusters might be of higher direct efficiency, but you still need to get there and that makes them in most cases a LOT less efficient than life circle because all the +10 nodes are not directly contributing to anything in a visible way.

Not for my build, at least. The lower right Ranger area offers Keystones and Notables that outperform the Scion circle, and sweetens the deal with measurably higher Increased Life skill-point efficiency.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

Nice try, however yours is a niche build. The game should be balanced around the main builds not around the niche builds. Not to say that your build isn't effective. It very likely is, and is also unique.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm not sure what you mean by "niche". Wands and traps are both mainstream tools of the trade for Witches and Shadows.

Yes that is true - but not many builds path for both spell damage/area damage and wand damage because they like to min-max, and yours is thus niche in that regard, at least imo. In fact, you've even agreed with that as you've stated:

"

Perhaps not, but it's a considerably shorter path than your Scion build.

"

Sorry, but your Increased Life numbers don't measure up. If you consider my build's 175% Increased Life on the low side, your Scion would be dangerously marginal with only 151%. (However, both versions augment the Life totals with about 50% Increased ES, which is what gives the build comparable viability to a 200% Increased Life build.)

This was your original tree before you edited it. 151% incr. max life


Here you go, I edited mine as well. Same - 175% incr. max life

"

I'd also differ on your skill-point efficiency analysis. The Scion's circle of life requires 2 overhead nodes to travel from the Shaper Notable. That gives you an average of 6.8% Life per each of the 10 points it took from your build. The three Ranger clusters in my build required 3 overhead nodes, averaging 7.5% Life per point. That's what I mean by "cherry picking".

Fair enough. However, witches and shadows don't usually build all the way there as you've also agreed, and thus - game balance should not be based on that.

"

"

sidtherat wrote:

...all the other, 'better' life clusters might be of higher direct efficiency, but you still need to get there and that makes them in most cases a LOT less efficient than life circle because all the +10 nodes are not directly contributing to anything in a visible way.

Not for my build, at least. The lower right Ranger area offers Keystones and Notables that outperform the Scion circle, and combines that with measurably higher Increased Life skill-point efficiency.

It's great if your build is one of those that isn't affected by the scion. However, I'm fairly sure that the majority are and I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't use your build as grounds not to change things as they stand currently.

"

Invalesco wrote:

This was your original tree before you edited it. 151% incr. max life

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMAVysHY-aBwFR5Awj0MYiLeqcr4vc74W0ZLR_B8448j6aio0qMF1RSU0Srf8ZXhyKBl5U9X1WuEZaArgQHLJwOSHC7-u_FKOOE2ROiBPZbiGvuFS9vWbw2Pbb3t3UxiaXL53QRL2Gx41YM8g-rYeLk6wW1bWxOuo2_tUhRRypbbXs-zzB8qrjW0VVLveZ_K6p_tDgmlXfX1oqNffv1kA10QdVPM3ikwhR1Vvred-c6wdhEDe4O_MUb4HGwI_ZnoO_wh3ZaSEp9krs=

Here you go, I edited mine as well. Same - 175% incr. max life

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31vKXkzrbWZtdvSctqBg8sZD56IMJQYdGcbc-tAz-CpMn8kXnY9xXHNw64YjxHpR_xqZXrFmsPyepEZaiozGeNZJabQ5IcLvB8yQ844TZE20ZSoynXIhr7hUvby0fjjxXh-wYSVE2Pbb3t3WPphdUgK7DbaXLmZoRL1JTRKsigfrvDPLrY5eVPV9VrqIEBbUEByycjb_FKFFH9ls-zzB8qrhZvL3mfyuqfzGJd9fWio19YbGQDXRBM3ikwuc6G-BN4_6Pnao=

Ah, that explains the difference. Yes, my first edit was an earlier version of the build. With that change, I agree that your Scion build is pretty much equivalent to my Witch/Shadow build.

"

It's great if your build is one of those that isn't affected by the scion. However, I'm fairly sure that the majority are and I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't use your build as grounds not to change things as they stand currently.

Totally agree here as well. While the modest revisions you propose to the Scion nodes would be a good place to start, I think both Witch and Shadow areas are sorely in need of improvement.

SO I tried a lot of builds from
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/549763
(apart from the summoner builds, for obvious reasons) and the Scion outperforms them all. WOW. I knew there probably was a reason why everyone played scion, but I didn't expect witches to get outperformed on their home territory for just about everything they do.
House would call it "interesting", Mr Spock "fascinating", but as a mere human, I stick to "disillusioning"

Very nice and simple suggestion. Connections in other class starter areas make little sense, but the Scion is in a unique position to traverse the tree - which should be shared somewhat.

Please don't make me go through the ES circle... it's not fun.