Be careful what you ask for: Gear progression and power creep

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

"

Druga1757 wrote:

Power creep occurs no matter where you decide to start. Power creep is only a problem because items never leave the economy, only currency.

The issue isn't simply making it easier to get better gear. I don't think anyone wants insta-BIS. What I would like, and what I think others would like, is to find/craft one's own upgrades to progress through the content. Right now, trading is vastly superior to drops/crafting. I'm not just talking about availability. But getting the precise stats for one's build.

The best way to combat power creep isn't to throttle items entering the economy. After all, power creep happens no matter where you start and how much you throttle it. It's taking items out of the economy. BoA, salvaging gear, corpse/gear recovery, hardcore death, etc. My personal preference is BoA crafting because it's a very elegant method to allow a person who wants to invest the time and resources to make their own personal gear and solves the power creep issue.

BoA is anything but elegant. It's more along the lines of using a nuke for a pest problem.

I disagree. As it is now, throttling items from entering the economy does nothing for power creep. All it does it is concentrate items among a small portion of the population who trade the most. This has the effect of accelerating power creep among that small portion of players while making it more difficult for many players to reach gear checks in progression. Players are either at one end of the power creep band or the other - not many in the middle.

BoA + better drop rates allows better distribution of gear to more players while also handling power creep better than the current system. Trade is still a big part of a BoA system since not all items are BoA (uniques for example, dropped rares, etc.). Much, MUCH more elegant than the current system.

Wow, if you ever made a "newbie's guide to interpreting empirical data", rule #1 is "ignore anyone who uses a random chart from something else totally unrelated to make his point." Rule #2 is "If that chart is unrelated because the author couldn't be arsed to find a blank chart showing a BELL CURVE, also make fun of him on your way out."

"

simnel wrote:

Wow, if you ever made a "newbie's guide to interpreting empirical data", rule #1 is "ignore anyone who uses a random chart from something else totally unrelated to make his point." Rule #2 is "If that chart is unrelated because the author couldn't be arsed to find a blank chart showing a BELL CURVE, also make fun of him on your way out."

This type of response is known as a 'straw man', which attempts to introduce doubt in the information presented by attacking a non-relevant component of the position because they have no valid counterargument for the actual topic.

I could not find a generic normal distribution chart that demonstrated both a shift in mean and increase in variance in the manner I desired. The closest approximation was the one I presented. Besides, the hot/cold analogy works.

Really productive feedback. Thanks for your input. [/sarcasm]

"

Nodor wrote:

Hardcore and League Resets are the ultimate power curve fix.

I agree wholeheartedly.
Unfortunately, there is a sizable population in Standard that is not willing/able to take advantage of this solution.

"

Garr0t wrote:

"

simnel wrote:

Wow, if you ever made a "newbie's guide to interpreting empirical data", rule #1 is "ignore anyone who uses a random chart from something else totally unrelated to make his point." Rule #2 is "If that chart is unrelated because the author couldn't be arsed to find a blank chart showing a BELL CURVE, also make fun of him on your way out."

This type of response is known as a 'straw man', which attempts to introduce doubt in the information presented by attacking a non-relevant component of the position because they have no valid counterargument for the actual matter at hand.

I could not find a normal distribution chart that demonstrated both a shift in mean and increase in variance. The closest approximation was the one I presented.

Really productive feedback. Thanks for your input. [/sarcasm]

Absolutely not. (Well, the straw man part. The productive part would only be reasonable if it changed someone's behavior, and from your response it's clear it won't.) It is absolutely reasonable to assume that someone using a chart in the way you are is also not particularly clear about other parts of his argument - and that is in fact that case here.

Specifically, you're neglecting the fact that, although the number "good items" items increase, it's not the absolute number of good items - it's how those items are distributed throughout the playerbase that impacts power creep. You haven't addressed that at all, when it's absolutely critical to the point you're trying to make.

Even if this WASN'T the case, though, it still wouldn't be a straw man, which is based on misrepresenting someone's position. I made fun of you for using a silly unrelated graph. Unproductive? Possibly. Straw man? Definitely not.

"

simnel wrote:

Specifically, you're neglecting the fact that, although the number "good items" items increase, it's not the absolute number of good items - it's how those items are distributed throughout the playerbase that impacts power creep. You haven't addressed that at all, when it's absolutely critical to the point you're trying to make.

I accept this observation, as the distribution of wealth isn't actually the subject of this thread. I did make an opening assumption that predicates the whole post, which is that we are assuming that a normal bell curve is representative of what theoretically would occur if item acquisition were a result of random walk.

In a later post I also elaborate on the fact that the initial post was intentionally simplified to mitigate the likelihood others may not understand the message. I guess I failed on that part. =(

"I'm not saying we need power creep, but IMO, the pace of the gear drops need to keep up with the pace of the difficulty, if the game decides to gear check you."

I think that says it all. getting stuck at 60+ lvl when the rest of the game wasn't too hard stops it from being fun.

"

Garr0t wrote:

The forum meta appears to be focusing on itemization/gearing of late. While I respect the opinions of people requesting easier access to better gear, I want to ensure everyone understands the impact of what they are asking.

Hmm... although they do it a completly different thing that is demanded. The demand targets more reliable access not easier average access.

"

As more players find/gamble/craft/trade items, the average player will have access to better gear. Over time, assuming the game's difficulty doesn't change, it means the average player will kill monsters more easily. This is an increase in mean. Because there is nothing that destroys good items once they are in the game, the curve will continue to shift to the right. This is known as power creep.

A very tricky general assumption. If I start to play PoE right now the items in the game mean nothing to me... because I don't own them. It does mean that it might be easy to trade for items... but PoE doesn't offer any tools to suggest this option to a new player.

"

Now here's the thing: What I see some people asking for is for these drop/roll rates to go up and/or to increase the certainty of results from using orbs. If this was to happen, it will accelerate the shift of the average player's killing power to the right. So the question I have for those of you that want this: What are you going to do once you have a character that can easily beat the hardest content of the game? In my opinion, power creep is a very bad thing for the longevity of the game.

Honestly seeing approachs in a lot of different games for this power creep mainly is used as an excuse to punish poor players for the benefit of rich players. It is similar in PoE. Right now the only people who benefit from the rarity of certain things are people that spend half their day in trade-chat. And since propably a lot of people see PoE from the point of older ARPGs (mainly D2) they propably also play mainly self-found... I'm not sure what is so bad with that. Actually D3 understood that. Getting good gear is so much more rewarding if you killed that ugly bastard that carried your new chestplate around instead of trading for it.

"

For me, the reward/goal is not just to finish the content, but to have that feeling of accomplishment of being better (or luckier) than the average player, be it through skill planning, skill choice, itemization, etc. If everyone else improves at the same rate (i.e. the average moves with me), where will that feeling come from?

I'm not sure how you compare your progress to those of other players. I basically just play to improve myself and try to manage certain situations better and better. And then there is racing.

"

All that being said, I too would like to see more certainty in crafting, so those that are on the left side of the table can overcome their 'bad luck' by deterministic consumption of orbs. However, in order to retain the excitement, exclusivity and reward of loot drops, the top tier mods should not be craftable, but rather found in the wild (or random orb roll), so there is always that little bit of anticipation when you kill a rare and you find an unidentified yellow!

Hmm... so PoE is balanced around trading right now. People demand a change (although not as many as you claim) and want it to be balanced around finding stuff themself which would of course result in an increased dropchance, since without excessive grinding it is simply not possible for all but the very least gear dependable builds to progress steadily and safely. It is a bit confusing that you want to keep the game balanced around trading, yet you mention how rewarding it is to get a self-found item...

Since release I played 2 Chars up to maps, one is lvl74 so I even did a lot of farming with it. The char is properly equiped. She wears a Saffels... I traded for. She wears Alpha's Howl... I traded for. She wears 30% Move-Speed Boots with a nice health-roll and some resists... I traded for. The only thing I found myself is the lightning-coil I'm wearing. My gloves are crap (I did wear blue gloves up to lvl71 since I simply didn't find rare gloves with better rolls). So the problem is making these moments when you find something so incredibly rare totally eliminates the joy of finding things. I did find good boots after buying those I wear. I would have loved to find them... but since the stats on them were a bit lower (I think they had 5 HP less and a bit less and different resistances) all the exitement was gone... since the game forced me to trade for boots beforehand.

"

Emphasy wrote:

Hmm... although they do it a completly different thing that is demanded. The demand targets more reliable access not easier average access.

You are correct. I made quite a few generalizations as I was attempting to convey the concept of how more powerful gear can lead to power creep. I actually agree with more reliable access for 'average' gear, which is why I support the implementation of deterministic crafting.

"

Emphasy wrote:

Honestly seeing approachs in a lot of different games for this power creep mainly is used as an excuse to punish poor players for the benefit of rich players.

Thanks for sharing this. I hadn't thought of looking at it this way. Though I assert those that are wealthier are likely to have greater time invested in the game, which I think is a 'fair' mechanic. Those that play more should have better gear since they have put in the time to 'earn' it. Lucky drops are like lottery winnings. It isn't intended to be a sustainable source of wealth to replace the time commitment, but rather a windfall income to elevate those whom RNGesus smiles upon.

"

Emphasy wrote:

I'm not sure how you compare your progress to those of other players. I basically just play to improve myself and try to manage certain situations better and better. And then there is racing.

I agree that everyone could enjoy this game best without the need to compare/consider others in the game, but I get the sensation that many complaints about gearing/progression are precisely because people are comparing their self-found/self-crafted gear to what others have shared. They watch how others play through content with ease and compare it to their own experiences and start claiming the system 'isn't fair' and they feel they are coming up short, hence the demand for changes to itemization mechanics in the game.

"

Emphasy wrote:

Hmm... so PoE is balanced around trading right now. People demand a change (although not as many as you claim) and want it to be balanced around finding stuff themself which would of course result in an increased dropchance, since without excessive grinding it is simply not possible for all but the very least gear dependable builds to progress steadily and safely. It is a bit confusing that you want to keep the game balanced around trading, yet you mention how rewarding it is to get a self-found item...

I personally would like to see mechanisms that ensure player progression more closely matches the game environment so the gear checks that serve as 'difficulty' aren't so noticeable. There are many approaches to achieving this, and I don't think a general increase in drop/craft rates is necessarily the best solution, arising from my concern of power creep, which is what this thread is about.

Thanks for the response!

A lot of hard thinking for what, I'm wondering.

Let's face it: the goal of hack&slash games is to become a powerhouse in endgame, to crush/explode/disintegrate even the hardest monsters (pick your choose).
It's not about balance, it's about the fun of feeling so powerful and relatively invincible.

But lately there has been this trend in games that players must grind forever without ever feeling this, because it's supposed to be "hardcore" when your gear is so bad that you feeel death at every corner.


To have fun, you must be able to gear up in weeks so you don't get bored and frustrated.
So far it only happens for a few chosen folks.

Currently, you hit the lv60 wall (called merciless act2-3), suddenly, if you don't already have a handful of carefully chosen uniques and at least a nice 5-linked pice of equipment, you're condemned to grind miserably for weeks to amass currency to painfully trade for one or 2 affordable uniques (which is exactly like D3, except that you have to trade instead of buying at the AH).

This could work out if you had a few quest rewards or way to ensure your first few uniques. Unfortunately RNG is not mitigated by anything (no reward whatsoever) and you can play for months without hitting the jackpot.

Second thing which is frustrating is that in most games, you farm endgame content to get endgame gear. Here you farm engame content to be rewarded with... anything from lv1 to lv60, which is diluting your chance of getting proper uniques even further.
I don't particularly enjoy farming Merc Dominus to get 4 Wanderlust boot, 3 Mindflayers and 3 Ignominon amulets etc etc...

I can't remember a game in which people complained because they had too much loot (because you can always raise difficulty later when people start to outgear everything). Grinding miserably for weeks for sure killed shitloads of online games.