How well do GGG really understand the mechanics of their own game?

Everyone knows the mechanics of PoE are really complicated; knowing what bonuses apply to which skills, and how bonuses and skills and support gems interact with each other, is confusing at the best of times.

Recently, though, I have begin to wonder whether they are so confusing, that they even confuse GGG.

Mark_GGG, for example, is an exceptional boon for the PoE community - he tirelessly answers random people's mechanics questions, and even corrects less-informed GGG members on occasion. But recently, in at least two separate threads, he has posted something with 'old mechancis' in mind, and has been caught out by the new mechanics which don't work like he expected. If even Mark_GGG is being confused by all of the changes, what hope is there for the rest of us?!

Perhaps more importantly, though, is the recent 1.0.2 patch. Now, I understand that they are under a lot of stress while trying to stick to regular patch deadlines, but how some things got through testing makes me wonder how much they really even understood what to test!

For example - Storm Call was released with a bug that meant it didn't work with auto-cast gems like cast on crit. Really? Did GGG not test cast on crit with it? Are there simply too many mechanics to test, or did they just overlook this combination? Did the people designing Storm Call think that it should work with cast on crit, or that it shouldn't? Did they even take Cast on Crit into account when designing and balancing Storm Call?

Another example is the damage over time changes. Chris posted in the patch notes that: "Modifiers based on how the damage is dealt will apply as appropriate - for example, increased area damage and increased projectile damage will both apply to the poison clouds from Poison Arrow, as it fills an area and is an effect of a projectile."
However, modifiers based on how the damage is dealt do not apply to any DoT effects; projectile damage applying to poison arrow is the only one. edit: this statement is incorrect, see Daniel_GGG's post below. Even bow damage bonuses don't apply to poison arrow.

Chris also posted that:
"Viper Strike can be supported by Melee Splash, now that the damage penalty also applies."
However, melee splash gives a damage penalty to attack damage, and viper strike DoT is not attack damage. Testing it (myself) in game showed that it did not apply the damage penalty, either on the tooltip, or on the monsters themselves.

How many GGG members reading this know exactly what bonuses apply to what types of DoT?
If you don't understand it properly - the ones who are responsible for designing and balancing the game - how can you expect ordinary users to? And how can you expect any balance changes to be sensible if you don't have a firm understanding of the underlying mechanics?

PS: I noticed that Poison Arrow now works with Ranged Attack Totem, now that the damage penalty from totems is applied to the cloud as well; well thought of, GGG!
PPS: Please note that these are just my impressions - I am more than happy to be proved wrong. In fact, I hope I do get proved wrong! But I'm worried that I won't be.
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
Last edited by dudiobugtron#4663 on Dec 2, 2013, 3:43:20 AM
Last bumped on Jul 11, 2016, 10:30:05 PM
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dudiobugtron wrote:
Another example is the damage over time changes. Chris posted in the patch notes that: "Modifiers based on how the damage is dealt will apply as appropriate - for example, increased area damage and increased projectile damage will both apply to the poison clouds from Poison Arrow, as it fills an area and is an effect of a projectile."
However, modifiers based on how the damage is dealt do not apply to any DoT effects; projectile damage applying to poison arrow is the only one. Even bow damage bonuses don't apply to poison arrow.

Modifiers based on how the damage is dealt do apply to DoT effects. Bow damage doesn't apply to the Poison Arrow DoT because damage over time is not attack damage. Area of effect damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by AoEs. Projectile damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by projectiles. Trap damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by traps. Same for totem and mine damage modifiers.
"
Daniel_GGG wrote:
Area of effect damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by AoEs.

Modifiers to AoE damage apply to DoTs which are AoEs, such as burning ground form fire trap, or RF. DoTs caused by AoEs (such as ignite burning caused by fire trap or discharge) aren't increased.
Perhaps the issue here is that GGG have a technical way of using 'caused by' that doesn't always overlap with common usage.

"
Projectile damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by projectiles.

Except for burning caused by burning arrow, or bleeding caused by puncture, or burning caused by fireball, or any other DoT caused by a projectile other than Poison cloud...

"
Trap damage modifiers apply to DoTs caused by traps. Same for totem and mine damage modifiers.

This is true (at least, I assume it is, I haven't tested it), my apologies.
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
"
dudiobugtron wrote:
DoTs caused by AoEs (such as ignite burning caused by fire trap or discharge) aren't increased.

This is incorrect. An ignite caused by an area skill will have its damage increased by area of effect modifiers.

"
dudiobugtron wrote:
Except for burning caused by burning arrow, or bleeding caused by puncture, or burning caused by fireball, or any other DoT caused by a projectile other than Poison cloud...

Again incorrect. All of the examples you listed will be increased by projectile damage modifiers (Puncture will only be increased if you're using a projectile weapon of course).
Wow, really? That is awesome. Thanks Daniel!

I'll stop spreading misinformation about it, and apologies for the unfair claim.

Does it work for melee damage modifiers too, with melee skills?

----------
Note, of course, that you can cause bleeding with a projectile without using a projectile weapon, but that's beside the point. ;)
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
"
Daniel_GGG wrote:
"
dudiobugtron wrote:
DoTs caused by AoEs (such as ignite burning caused by fire trap or discharge) aren't increased.

This is incorrect. An ignite caused by an area skill will have its damage increased by area of effect modifiers.

"
dudiobugtron wrote:
Except for burning caused by burning arrow, or bleeding caused by puncture, or burning caused by fireball, or any other DoT caused by a projectile other than Poison cloud...

Again incorrect. All of the examples you listed will be increased by projectile damage modifiers (Puncture will only be increased if you're using a projectile weapon of course).


I think the confusion is arising because of how this is all being worded.

So you are saying that +projectile damage will increase the initial hit, and then increase the burning as well on burning arrow?
P̯̹̙̥̉̏ͦͯA̠̝̰̣̯͕͚̲̭͈̥̠͑̓̿ͦ̾ͯ̍ͅͅȚ̜̦͕̞̞̠̮͎͔͙͔̺̺͉̟̿̿̏ͬ͛͋̍ͮ̌̚H̹͕͚̟͍̘̤̱̻̬͓̬̮̫̦͖̳̹ͮͨ̒̉ͮ̿̈ͪ̇̿͆ͭ̃ͭ̃ͭ̚ ̲̫̞̤͓̳͑ͬ̾͌ͯ͐͂̿͗ͨ͋͑̍͐͗̾̄O͕̮̻͔̳̠͉͖̳͖͈̻͇͈̣̙̪͈ͨ͐̒̽ͣ̋ͅF̣͎̞̞̯̝ͦ͌̆ͥ̈͐̾ͣ̔ͮ̐̀̏ͪ̚ ̟̩͙̙̩̮̻̼ͬ͑ͥͦ͗̿E̼̭̩̜͕̱̤̭̞͖̳͍̝̤̼͓̗ͩͫ̌ͬ̊̋̄͑͗̽X͕̰̪̱̲̩̙̦͓͓̯̠̤̝̝̯̣̥̀̋̌̍̚Ȉ̖̟͔̩̝̊̿ͪͅL̺͓̻̰̀͋̅ͮͧE͔̼͚͕̮̻̟̩̪̖̫̪̦͙̎̑͆̏ͨͅ
Yes.
"
Daniel_GGG wrote:
"
dudiobugtron wrote:
DoTs caused by AoEs (such as ignite burning caused by fire trap or discharge) aren't increased.

This is incorrect. An ignite caused by an area skill will have its damage increased by area of effect modifiers.

"
dudiobugtron wrote:
Except for burning caused by burning arrow, or bleeding caused by puncture, or burning caused by fireball, or any other DoT caused by a projectile other than Poison cloud...

Again incorrect. All of the examples you listed will be increased by projectile damage modifiers (Puncture will only be increased if you're using a projectile weapon of course).


I find it pretty wierd, that for certain DoTs, certain "X% increased" (and, maybe, "more" too) modifiers are applied twice, making scaling proportional to X^2. I mean Ignite and Puncture. Increased projectile damage is already applied to puncture in form of increasing direct hit (and since puncture is based on direct hit damage, it will be increased too), but then it applies once again, increasing DoT damage as caused by projectile, which is plain wrong wrong in this case, i find.
Same for ignite.
IGN: MortalKombat
Molten Strike build guide: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1346504

There is no knowledge
That is not power
"
dudiobugtron wrote:

"Viper Strike can be supported by Melee Splash, now that the damage penalty also applies."
However, melee splash gives a damage penalty to attack damage, and viper strike DoT is not attack damage. Testing it (myself) in game showed that it did not apply the damage penalty, either on the tooltip, or on the monsters themselves.


Last question I promise, so is this a bug or is it intentional? Because I thought that this was the reason melee splash was disabled with viper strike in the first place.
P̯̹̙̥̉̏ͦͯA̠̝̰̣̯͕͚̲̭͈̥̠͑̓̿ͦ̾ͯ̍ͅͅȚ̜̦͕̞̞̠̮͎͔͙͔̺̺͉̟̿̿̏ͬ͛͋̍ͮ̌̚H̹͕͚̟͍̘̤̱̻̬͓̬̮̫̦͖̳̹ͮͨ̒̉ͮ̿̈ͪ̇̿͆ͭ̃ͭ̃ͭ̚ ̲̫̞̤͓̳͑ͬ̾͌ͯ͐͂̿͗ͨ͋͑̍͐͗̾̄O͕̮̻͔̳̠͉͖̳͖͈̻͇͈̣̙̪͈ͨ͐̒̽ͣ̋ͅF̣͎̞̞̯̝ͦ͌̆ͥ̈͐̾ͣ̔ͮ̐̀̏ͪ̚ ̟̩͙̙̩̮̻̼ͬ͑ͥͦ͗̿E̼̭̩̜͕̱̤̭̞͖̳͍̝̤̼͓̗ͩͫ̌ͬ̊̋̄͑͗̽X͕̰̪̱̲̩̙̦͓͓̯̠̤̝̝̯̣̥̀̋̌̍̚Ȉ̖̟͔̩̝̊̿ͪͅL̺͓̻̰̀͋̅ͮͧE͔̼͚͕̮̻̟̩̪̖̫̪̦͙̎̑͆̏ͨͅ
Last edited by lukeiy#6623 on Dec 2, 2013, 3:43:34 AM
It's being addressed - I'm not sure that it's a bug as such... obviously at some point someone decided it should be attack damage rather than generic damage. There is however currently a bug with Viper Strike + Melee Splash that causes area of effect damage modifiers to not apply to the DoT on splashed targets.

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