I've played both the Trickster and Guardian version, and much rather the Templar Guardian version, simply because I play RF because it is more "forgiving" and playing as the Trickster isn't so very forgiving.
However, I've no idea how people are getting 20kES. I'm stuck at 16.5 with reasonable gear. I know I'm missing about 40% ES from my tree, but I use the weapon to compensate for that.
Anyways, here is my gear setup, and tree. Thanks for a great build. I wanted to push RF to higher content, and the life version stopped at T16 for me. This does T16s well, the shaper, however, I might need to work on a little more.
Hey, I for one did manage to get past the 20k ES without using the Ephemeral Edge.
Here's a couple differences I see between your and my build:
- I have 6 lvls over you (I'm 96)
- While your gear has pretty solid ES values, it generally lacks INT rolls. I've also tried to get as high as affordable INT rolls on gear too (helmet/boots/belt). And my shield has 600+ ES. Your belt lacks the INT roll, so you could get a cheap ES upgrade by running Bated Breath. Though that'll cost you some resists.
- My shill tree is different, and has more ES nodes. You have picked up Barbarism, and Blast Radius. That's 7 nodes that I have skipped. AOE isn't worth it to me anymore after AOE scaling nerf. Barely any difference. And spending 4 nodes for +1 fire res...also not worth it IMO. No issues sustaining RF without it, even in -max/vulnerability/less regen maps. So that's 7 skill point you could spent on ES. 7 x 6% nodes is an extra 42% ES. Which is 1k+ extra ES. You're also still missing the 4 ES nodes near Witch which buff ES by a lot.
- Your skill tree doesn't show the Jewels you are using, and your character tab is set to private, so can't compare there. But I'm running 3 x 11% Energy from within, 1 jewel with 8% ES + 16 INT and 1 jewel with 8% ES.
Hope this helps. Feel free to check my character profile (LooksLikeFunOrNot)
So new patch notes and before any1 goes screaming that this build is no longer viable or strong as it was let me enlighten you that in 3.0 this build is quite stronger ....especially the trickster variant which u can play without the need for shavs ring...So here we go...First the nerf to RF dmg
-Righteous Fire now deals 20% less damage to enemies at all levels. You now deal 20% more spell damage while Righteous Fire is active with a level 1 Righteous Fire gem (down from 40% more spell damage), up to 39% more spell damage at gem level 20 (down from 58% more spell damage).
-So now RF does 20% less dmg....So to start things ofF and see everything from the beginning....If u are using the delirium crafted gloves(30% more dmg over time for socketed gems) that means we get 10% more dmg gained...Second buff is the change to Burning Dmg
-Increased Burning Damage Support has been renamed Burning Damage Support. It now provides 35% more Burning Damage at gem level 1, up to 54% more Burning Damage at gem level 20.
So the major difference here and this is indeed a big one is that this gem is now MORE instead of Increased .....and in simple terms MORE is better than increased.....So we gain 59% more burning damage from the gem now
-Then comes the talent tree changes as noted below
-Holy Fire near the Templar now grants 60% increased Burning Damage (up from 40%), and the passives preceding it now grant 20% increased Burning Damage (up from 15%)
Which means that we ger 30% increased burning damage from the 3 passives alone....
-So in conclusion we have 30% more dot dmg(gloves)+59% more Burning Dmg(Gem)+30% increased burning dmg(from passives)-20% less dmg from the nerf to the gem...
-So if my math dont fail me ...and if we include the 33% less es we get in total from gear nerfs we still come on top in terms of dps....
Now the serious math and most awesome thing in the patch notes....The Trickster changes.....(Note the trickster variation always had more damage than the guardian...but now it has even more....So here we go...
-The Trickster's Patient Reaper skill now grants 70% increased Recovery Rate of Life, Mana and Energy Shield if you've Killed an Enemy affected by your Damage Over Time Recently (up from 60%).
The Trickster's Swift Killer skill now also grants +1 to Maximum Power Charges, and 5% increased Damage over Time per Frenzy and Power charge.
So from the trickster changes we have 4 Frenzy charges and 4 power charges (mostly whlie map clearing and in some if not most boss fights due to adds)
So 4 Frenzy charges give 20% increased DoT dmg and 16% MORE DMG (since it wasnt changed at all and the dmg increase is still global)
Also 4 Power charges give 20% increased DoT dmg......So in total the trickster gets 16% more dmg and 40% increased....
In total to sum up....guardian is still tanky and possibly (if my maths are correct) stronger damage wise from what it was in 2.6......Trickster is the best choice damage wise since the frenzy charge changes didnt come to pass and it gets 40% increased damage also.....
Sorry for the tiresome long post if u guys need anything just ask....Also we still dont know if efficacy or what is called will now socket with RF...Cause if it works it will certainly replace Inc Aoe gem for trash clearing or even make it possible for RF to run in a 5link....We shall see past friday good luck to all....
Good points on Trickter. He is got a nice buff, and is definately the class to take if you want top dps. For QoL, and easy of running maps mods, I'd always pick guardian though. I mean, I have the guardian build, and have no problem running T15s with the IIQ gen instead of burning gem, and Bisco's Collar instead of Chayula.
As for you reasoning and math on RF damage buff. It's kinda flawed:
- Counting in the Essence gloves for calculating the buff makes no sense, since we had those available in 2.6 already.
- The 20% nerf to ES and the lower ES is a base dmg nerf, which has far more important that increases or multipliers from gems. You say: "So now RF does 20% less dmg....So to start things ofF and see everything from the beginning....If u are using the delirium crafted gloves(30% more dmg over time for socketed gems) that means we get 10% more dmg gained".
That's not how math works. A 20% nerf and a 30% buff would add up to 0,8 x 1.3 = 1.04, so a 4% buff. However, since these gloves were already in 2.6, this 30% doesn't belong in the buffs section.
- The base dmg nerf actually so substantial that we lose DPS for this low life RF version. Here's why:
20% loss RF base and 33% loss ES equals an new base dmg of 0.8 x 0.67 = 0.536. So our new base dmg is 53.6% of our old base dmg. In order to make up for that loss, and get on the same lvl as in 2.6, we'd need an additional dmg multiplier of 100 / 53.6 = 1.866. Which means we'd need a gem that gives us 86.6% MORE dmg. As far as we know now we get a 59% MORE multiplier from burning gem, but also lose 69% INCREASED from that same gem. So overall it will be a dmg nerf, at least for the Guardian version, but I highly doubt the Tricker buffs make up for that same loss.
- To further substantiate this, my RF guardian with legacy gear will go from 20.6K es to 18.1k es, and only gain about 3% MORE dmg in 3.0. This is with legacy gear. With 3.0 rolled es gear you'd probably get 14, maybe max 15k ES, which would result in a dmg loss compared to 2.6.
- Life based RF however is a different story. More life in 3.0, so they'll definately be buffed.
tldr: expect an overall dmg nerf for this low life RF build compared to 2.6. Don't worry too much about it though, since damage will still be fine, and you'll still be able to clear all content in game. Plus, this build will still have more EHP and dmg compared to life version. Plus more aura's :-)
Last edited by Fritso#3688 on Aug 3, 2017, 5:39:50 AM
So new patch notes and before any1 goes screaming that this build is no longer viable or strong as it was let me enlighten you that in 3.0 this build is quite stronger ....especially the trickster variant which u can play without the need for shavs ring...So here we go...First the nerf to RF dmg
-Righteous Fire now deals 20% less damage to enemies at all levels. You now deal 20% more spell damage while Righteous Fire is active with a level 1 Righteous Fire gem (down from 40% more spell damage), up to 39% more spell damage at gem level 20 (down from 58% more spell damage).
-So now RF does 20% less dmg....So to start things ofF and see everything from the beginning....If u are using the delirium crafted gloves(30% more dmg over time for socketed gems) that means we get 10% more dmg gained...Second buff is the change to Burning Dmg
-Increased Burning Damage Support has been renamed Burning Damage Support. It now provides 35% more Burning Damage at gem level 1, up to 54% more Burning Damage at gem level 20.
So the major difference here and this is indeed a big one is that this gem is now MORE instead of Increased .....and in simple terms MORE is better than increased.....So we gain 59% more burning damage from the gem now
-Then comes the talent tree changes as noted below
-Holy Fire near the Templar now grants 60% increased Burning Damage (up from 40%), and the passives preceding it now grant 20% increased Burning Damage (up from 15%)
Which means that we ger 30% increased burning damage from the 3 passives alone....
-So in conclusion we have 30% more dot dmg(gloves)+59% more Burning Dmg(Gem)+30% increased burning dmg(from passives)-20% less dmg from the nerf to the gem...
-So if my math dont fail me ...and if we include the 33% less es we get in total from gear nerfs we still come on top in terms of dps....
Now the serious math and most awesome thing in the patch notes....The Trickster changes.....(Note the trickster variation always had more damage than the guardian...but now it has even more....So here we go...
-The Trickster's Patient Reaper skill now grants 70% increased Recovery Rate of Life, Mana and Energy Shield if you've Killed an Enemy affected by your Damage Over Time Recently (up from 60%).
The Trickster's Swift Killer skill now also grants +1 to Maximum Power Charges, and 5% increased Damage over Time per Frenzy and Power charge.
So from the trickster changes we have 4 Frenzy charges and 4 power charges (mostly whlie map clearing and in some if not most boss fights due to adds)
So 4 Frenzy charges give 20% increased DoT dmg and 16% MORE DMG (since it wasnt changed at all and the dmg increase is still global)
Also 4 Power charges give 20% increased DoT dmg......So in total the trickster gets 16% more dmg and 40% increased....
In total to sum up....guardian is still tanky and possibly (if my maths are correct) stronger damage wise from what it was in 2.6......Trickster is the best choice damage wise since the frenzy charge changes didnt come to pass and it gets 40% increased damage also.....
Sorry for the tiresome long post if u guys need anything just ask....Also we still dont know if efficacy or what is called will now socket with RF...Cause if it works it will certainly replace Inc Aoe gem for trash clearing or even make it possible for RF to run in a 5link....We shall see past friday good luck to all....
Good points on Trickter. He is got a nice buff, and is definately the class to take if you want top dps. For QoL, and easy of running maps mods, I'd always pick guardian though. I mean, I have the guardian build, and have no problem running T15s with the IIQ gen instead of burning gem, and Bisco's Collar instead of Chayula.
As for you reasoning and math on RF damage buff. It's kinda flawed:
- Counting in the Essence gloves for calculating the buff makes no sense, since we had those available in 2.6 already.
- The 20% nerf to ES and the lower ES is a base dmg nerf, which has far more important that increases or multipliers from gems. You say: "So now RF does 20% less dmg....So to start things ofF and see everything from the beginning....If u are using the delirium crafted gloves(30% more dmg over time for socketed gems) that means we get 10% more dmg gained".
That's not how math works. A 20% nerf and a 30% buff would add up to 0,8 x 1.3 = 1.04, so a 4% buff. However, since these gloves were already in 2.6, this 30% doesn't belong in the buffs section.
- The base dmg nerf actually so substantial that we lose DPS for this low life RF version. Here's why:
20% loss RF base and 33% loss ES equals an new base dmg of 0.8 x 0.67 = 0.536. So our new base dmg is 53.6% of our old base dmg. In order to make up for that loss, and get on the same lvl as in 2.6, we'd need an additional dmg multiplier of 100 / 53.6 = 1.866. Which means we'd need a gem that gives us 86.6% MORE dmg. As far as we know now we get a 59% MORE multiplier from burning gem, but also lose 69% INCREASED from that same gem. So overall it will be a dmg nerf, at least for the Guardian version, but I highly doubt the Tricker buffs make up for that same loss.
- To further substantiate this, my RF guardian with legacy gear will go from 20.6K es to 18.1k es, and only gain about 3% MORE dmg in 3.0. This is with legacy gear. With 3.0 rolled es gear you'd probably get 14, maybe max 15k ES, which would result in a dmg loss compared to 2.6.
- Life based RF however is a different story. More life in 3.0, so they'll definately be buffed.
tldr: expect an overall dmg nerf for this low life RF build compared to 2.6. Don't worry too much about it though, since damage will still be fine, and you'll still be able to clear all content in game. Plus, this build will still have more EHP and dmg compared to life version. Plus more aura's :-)
+
Thing is and i noticed after i wrote that whole damn thing....that there isnt another dps nerf in RF...meaning i thought they did another one since in the beta the rf gem was nerfed....Also valid points u are making there....Also id like to answer since we experimented on beta with some close friends for gear gathering etc....i reached 14k es in the guardian variation and managed to kill shaper deathless....yeah i had to dodge the slams instead of stying afk the whole fight but its still doable and the damage is there....once we go live in 3.0.0 we will all see how we do :)
With Leo mod down to 5% in 3.0. I dont know if Guardian or other class can sustain degen without rise of the phoenix now.
Undecided to go for Berserk RF or Guardian LL RF.
Well, the DoT mod indeed went down to 5%, but we get an additional 10% reduced from Pantheon. So only a 5% loss.
For reference, I'm running the guardian version, and I can sustain RF even without any shield. So it will be fine in 3.0. We can even get an extra 1% regen from bandits, though not sure that's worth the 2 skill points.
Any chance you're going to update the build for 3.0?
Yes, but I will probably need a few days to update the whole guide.
An important PSA to get you guys started: Arcane Surge adds the Duration Tag to RF - if you don't want to run with a Delirium Gloves setup, you should now go for RF - Conc/IncAOE - Burning Damage - Ele Focus - Arcane Surge - Swift Affliction as your 6-link.
playing rf trickster as league starter build, using rf from 24 lvl with pof,vitality,springleaf shield,2 kikazaru rings+ shaper seed amulet pretty good, was out of hp degen at 52 lvl with 11 pof / 11 vitality.
atm 82 lvl with 5.5k es, 12k armour, and 128k dps on rf with frenzy/power charges up (too bad can't sustain them on boss), pretty good mapping, dont know how good or bad my dps atm compared to other classes.
pob says my dps going up to 205k with doryani and shavronne and helmet enchant.
equip
https://pastebin.com/TD01jYpN
seems only templar/marauder can deal good with endgame content, other classes will suffer a bit ;)
