The Summoner Compendium

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PyrosEien wrote:

On your build, I would do a few variations. Drop the 2x 8%mana nodes on the side, don't think this is necessary in most cases even when running Clar/Disc/Purity as long as you don't lvl clarity(which with all the mana regen % is probably pointless anyway). Also dropped the spell power nodes(elementalist and the 2 at the witch start). I also dropped one 8%life at Divine Toughness, one 8% in the templar area and the 1% regen and used all these spare points to grab shield stuff and the other Fitness. Gives 7%block, 12%block applied to spells and 30% elemental resists(that's what it was changed to on alpha at least). The resists I feel are pretty useful because you won't have to gear specifically for resists quite as much with 30% and that means you can get your mana or health back more easily from gear that doesn't necessarily have good resists. Also the block/spell block don't hurt.

Total loss: 28%spell dmg, 6%health, 1%life regen, 16%mana
Total gain: 7% block, 12%spell block, 30%resists, 10int, 30str

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMBVysHY3NTa9t9GOyKwFTmgRFQMYh5Awj0u9Y74eL3pyuLem0ZwfPDbaKjf8Yc3JMnv5fJPfIetAxGcZUggsfT-6h9WpFqrCj66-64kwx9EH_GnqcI2QsqmPqAj0bQ0JuhSOf316yYFLA6MMy8hWCqxBCXRASdrhpspqyIQJAzz2VVxtrdflknqVptJDynXElRGYUkqjbp42qfe3i65CIpT-w4OthN2Ix2njyBb_rSZp6plVFgGjKAVk99BLMUTaIAkFXAGg==

As for my build I'm not sure yet, I'm interested in the spell balance changes to see what I'm gonna do first. Might run a crazy triple curse, double arc totem, firestorm trap summoner though or something like that.

While your suggestions about the mana nodes are admirable, clarity got nerfed, those compensate, I dont wear a shield usually, nor do I care about block, but realistically as a summoner, if i get hit its my fault, resists are easy to find on gear, I want the 1% regen to save me from popping top off flasks, its convenience and a choice. the 8% divine toughness node is moot because you get it elsewhere.

btw, I squeezed info out of brian, fireball is getting buffed :)

I will look into the new shield passives I wasnt aware of those.

Oh right forgot you DW wands, then yeah the changes are pointless. The 8% health nodes and stuff I only took to get to the same point in terms of points spent than you did in your original build but with taking the shield nodes. I think they're really good if using a shield, especially combined with the unique shield with 50%spell block, so you end up with 62% of your block for spells which is a pretty solid amount, and the 30% resist is a pretty large amount I find that gives you a lot more freedom of choice for gear. Sure I have all 3 resists capped on my summoner but that means I can't replace some pieces unless I find a piece that has similar 40-60% resists total on it or I won't be capped and doing maps it's very dangerous to not be capped for everything. That's why I find these passives extremely good.

On mana though I don't think the Clarity nerf is that big for summoners but I guess it does depend on how much you spam nukes, if you have dual wands and cast speed% passives you would spend a lot more mana than I do which would explain the difference. Also it lets you cut on mana flasks which lets you use either more Quicksilvers or more Granites, so there's a point there too, but I don't know if 8% would make a tangible difference. I find mana regen % along with all the int nodes tend to be more interesting, and possibly even the crappy looking +mana on kills, but I don't know how these work with minions or in groups. Probably still not worth it though.

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PyrosEien wrote:

Oh right forgot you DW wands, then yeah the changes are pointless. The 8% health nodes and stuff I only took to get to the same point in terms of points spent than you did in your original build but with taking the shield nodes. I think they're really good if using a shield, especially combined with the unique shield with 50%spell block, so you end up with 62% of your block for spells which is a pretty solid amount, and the 30% resist is a pretty large amount I find that gives you a lot more freedom of choice for gear. Sure I have all 3 resists capped on my summoner but that means I can't replace some pieces unless I find a piece that has similar 40-60% resists total on it or I won't be capped and doing maps it's very dangerous to not be capped for everything. That's why I find these passives extremely good.

On mana though I don't think the Clarity nerf is that big for summoners but I guess it does depend on how much you spam nukes, if you have dual wands and cast speed% passives you would spend a lot more mana than I do which would explain the difference. Also it lets you cut on mana flasks which lets you use either more Quicksilvers or more Granites, so there's a point there too, but I don't know if 8% would make a tangible difference. I find mana regen % along with all the int nodes tend to be more interesting, and possibly even the crappy looking +mana on kills, but I don't know how these work with minions or in groups. Probably still not worth it though.

Since I make sure every piece of my endgame gear has +mana on it (and around 50 at least) those extra 32% add up nicely, and yes, I do perma cast chain/lmp/ignite fireballs at around 95 mana, but i have about 134 mana/s and I run haste aura now as well since with the passives and my gear I have 1200 mana without EB, which is a big dps upgrade for my summons as well as my fireballs. tbh, resists are important, but I have been fortunate enough to have a few sets of rings, that I will equip depending on the map, since my gear requirements are so low (i look for +mana, and thats pretty much it, everyhting else is bonus)

The +mana on kill, only effects you when YOU kill something, not a zombie, I run blood rage (while I can, wont be immune to chaos in a few days) and when my zombies get "a kill" I dont get a frenzy charge. I tend to find myself a much more active caster for a summoner becuase I want to clear quickly.

Since act 3 is going to up the difficulty of the game by quite alot I think I will look into the shield nodes as you suggested, might be effective.

So, we got the basics done and we all heard or have seen what the OB might bring. Any ideas so far what you guys might be going for?

My last summoner project was a "pure summoner" if you will. Not using Spectres though. It was fun but it feels very very slow now. Relying on your minions to do the killing is NOT the way to go imho. So I'm still struggling on what way to go. Dual totem is always an option but I'm not sure yet. Just using a totem for skeletons and spamming spells is a way - even though that doesn't help me at all atm. I'm literally doing no dmg whatsoever, might as well not cast. I haven't decided yet what spell to use though.

I could still get some more spell dmg and static blows and do the usual thing (chained arc). I kind of thought about EK, too. It would match perfectly with my vulnerability curse. But EK casting yourself is quite pricey on the mana and it needs heavy support to work. So you basically need to have a 5L if you want to use it in a totem. And I still do not have a 5L.

I heard Kripp talking about skeletons btw. They thought about supporting skeletons with life instead of dmg, just to make MI hit harder. Is that really viable? I assume only if you use them as a temporal decoy for bosses, without skilling into all the minion nodes.

Any thoughts on CI? Sadly Kripp didn't show a CI char yet, so I have no clue if it's even still working or how the new regen talent is supposed to work (does it add a separate c/d that exists beside the delayed "standard" c/d?).

Just curious what you guys might think. I'm quite sure now that I want a more offensive approach. I'll gladly dodge a little more here and there as long as I have the means to throw out dem deeps when I have the chance. As I said, right now I have to wait for my brainless army to do the killing. And while that is safe, it's not exactly fast.

Might be fixed by not setting the skeleton totem always and instead use one with a spell and also getting some more spell dmg gear.

Planning on making a summoner at launch and just kind of wondering about Necromantic Aegis and if it is a good idea to take it or not. My plan was pretty much the health build in the OP but the only skill I'm really not sure about is Necromantic Aegis.

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kojicolnair wrote:

Planning on making a summoner at launch and just kind of wondering about Necromantic Aegis and if it is a good idea to take it or not. My plan was pretty much the health build in the OP but the only skill I'm really not sure about is Necromantic Aegis.

There's a part about Necromantic Aegis in the mechanics section. I personally don't take it but I plan on playing HC, on softcore it'd probably be an ok choice, kinda.



Unimatrix few things. First off I don't really know my summoner build yet and I'll wait until we have an official word from Chris about what's going in for the OB patch, basically patch notes, which I suppose they will release early next week just before OB. At that point I'll make my build, if fire spells are indeed buffed I might look into it as I really liked Firestorm back when I made my first summoner.

EK is fine with only 3 supports in my opinion, you don't need a 5L for it. Sure it's one of the spells that benefit the most from 5 or 6L but it functions fine with only a 4L. Added Fire damage due to its massive damage increase(40% more damage), Fork/Chain to make EK stronger at clearing large packs and Faster Projectiles to increase its range a lot, so it becomes a "safe" spell to use. Sure Faster Casting would be great too since it casts slow, but you can always grab a few cast speed % nodes and witch has an easy access to quite a lot of cast speed% and you can grab a bunch on your wand too. At the end of the day though, I started doing maps without any cast speed% and I was 1-2shotting packs with my 4L EK with like 0 damage stats and using fork instead of chain. Sure it costs like 80mana to cast, but that's ok, I have a bunch of mana nodes and high regen and it's not like I'm using anything else. I did keep perpetual mana flasks though, so if you absolutely want to drop flasks, then EK might not be the best option or at least not in a 4L.

On skeletons, not sure what you're saying, I always link minion health to skeletons, and minion damage. Damage wise, both are useful, if you have more minion life% then minion damage % adds more damage per %, and if you have more damage %, then life adds more per %. That's why you want an equal balance of both since they both affect the spell. There might be an optimal ratio but I'm too lazy to calculate it. Minion life is always useful anyway so your minions don't get one shot so they can explode with MI. I use a 4L with skeleton, life, dmg and faster casting(can be replaced by spell totem instead) and don't plan on changing that as there's really nothing better than minion damage and minion health for skeletons anyway.

As for CI who knows what they're going to do with it. In the first alpha state though, I would have grabbed CI still, just not at 50, not at 60, maybe not even at 70. With the way it was designed, it was meant to be taken as late as possible, but at 80+, with the right respec to make use of it, I think it would have still been super strong. Supposedly they've been "unnerfing" it though so it might mean you can take it earlier, but I still think for very far endgame, it's a great skill since the scaling of MORE ES% and the multiple ES mods you can get on items vs the single health mod means you get a ton more ES than health anyway, and still for less points. It's not as much of a no brainer as the current CB one, but eventually it works out to be just as powerful if not more.

First off,let me say that you have done amazing job with this thread and the amount of effort & time you have putted into it is amazing.

Now,id like to know your personal opinion - I currently have 2 witches ,both are cold crit builded.The disadvantage is that its fairly weak early on and its horrible on bossfights (if you go solo that is).The advantage is the farming.

Now i know that i will play witch on launch cause that playstyle suits me the best.But i wanna know is it possible to mix a VERY strong minion army with a sick offense by yourself ?

Like for example,i dont like to really play passive but in same time i want to be in the most secure position of not dying,wich is playing summoner.I did some theorycrafting for past hour and in my opinion,summoner is really really really passive.

How can i mix this ? I know you said about the three elemental spells,im thinking about going hard damage on spark with taking increased lighting damage / cast speed nodes after about level 60~ (thats when you finish the summoner fully).

What could you suggest?

Thanks.

Well as I explain in the original post, you don't need that many points to play summoner. More interesting is the fact that you need even less points if you decide to skip some of the minion nodes, the damage oriented ones specifically, to focus on only health minion nodes. You will have less zombies(6 vs 8) however they'll be exactly as tanky and as such provide a very strong line of defense.

With all the points left, you could easily build a very offensive caster witch. It won't be as good in terms of pure raw output than a pure caster witch, but at the same time it's also a ton safer especially when solo(for grouping purposes I don't feel zombies and such are as necessary between all the decoy totems you can get or skeleton totems etc plus aura stacking).

For example here's a final build type of thing. Now you might not get 111points in OB, but I think it'll be pretty close at practical max level, say 90ish(and the max amount of points will most likely be increased). It's a health based lightning caster that also picks all the minion health nodes besides the spectre one and a bunch of zombies. This is almost like a pure lightning caster to be honest, you'd have a few more points to drop in crit/crit multi as a pure caster, but not that much more, it grabs every notable lightning and castspeed % node, a decent amount of crit and crit multi and a fair amount of health and ES nodes to survive. Inner Force could also be replaced by the templar crit/critmulti node instead if not running many auras, not sure how auras are gonna work out with the increased mana costs in OB. You could also cut the far right minion node and maybe invest into the templar health node or more damage as you see fit.



I'd say a build like this(or another element, since most of it is interchangeable at no cost) would be about 90% as good as pure caster AND benefit from 6 zombies with a very large health pool as well as a skeleton totem generating fairly strong skeletons that will blow up on death via MI, adding even more damage.

In my opinion, it's a common misconception that summoners only do summoning and are as such boring. The build is as boring as you want it to be, nothing forces you to grab ALL the summoner related nodes or double curse or dual totems or whatever, summoner is an extremely flexible class and as long as you pick SOME summoner node, you'll have a fairly useful bunch of very strong minions to soak up damage for you. It's also important to remember you can use Uniques to replace minion nodes. Specifically the Bones of Ullr boots are fairly well balanced, you get move speed and one zombie, which is pretty good despite the lack of resists. The wand Midnight Bargain might also be interesting in some cases since it provides 2skels, 1zombie, 1spectre for the cost of 30% max life, which with a high ES and minions isn't that big of a deal(might want to switch on bosses like Vaal though).

Thank you for your feedback :)

I think i will go with power syphon ,think that will suit me the best.

Thanks for your input Pyros.

You are right on the skeletons. I always forget that CI doesn't make them explode when they die , but let them blow up themselves when on low life. So you basically always want to make sure they at least don't get one-shotted obviously.

I also agree on your advise for snorlak. The AI in PoE is decent but not good enough to solely rely on minions - imho (and compared to the very quick skeletons in D2 for instance). Probably on purpose because it is in fact very easy to dish out fairly much dmg yourself. Would they be better a summoner would be very overpowered I assume.

That's probably what I will do, come OB. An offensively oriented summoner, grabbing as much summon specific nodes as I find necessary (as opposed to as much as possible) and care about survivability and dmg from there. As long as we don't know what exactly the balancing will look like in OB it's kind of hard to say anyway.

€: Also, thanks for your input on EK. I will take advantage of this by checking again on my EK marauder if a different combination of support gems will make life easier. Kripp suggested Chain/Fork for a 6L only (i.e. a pure luxury) but maybe he is wrong and fork will make it feel stronger. Will look into it.