Feedback and Suggestions - On Long Term Leagues, Trade, Loot Devaluation and PvP: Ethereal Orb Item Sink - Forum

" Mordron wrote: Your idea is roughly addressed by "Animate Guardian" I think... 1.0 Patch Notes " Chris wrote: You can't drop items in PvP areas any more. So anyone with ideas for a "burn my Uniques" PvP build, sorry, you've been pre-nerfed. I don't know why, but you have. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.	Posted by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Oct 25, 2013, 8:07:51 AM Quote this Post
" ScrotieMcB wrote: " Mordron wrote: Your idea is roughly addressed by "Animate Guardian" I think... 1.0 Patch Notes " Chris wrote: You can't drop items in PvP areas any more. So anyone with ideas for a "burn my Uniques" PvP build, sorry, you've been pre-nerfed. I don't know why, but you have. LOL. They didn't want people bringing inventories full of weapons to animate. As far as AG, does it really not persist through PvP queues? Do specters? Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Oct 25, 2013, 8:32:42 AM Quote this Post
Would a durability feature on every item not be a more simple way of having the same outcome but to greater effect?. Certainly not against a new orb which can temporally increase item effectiveness vs longevity but if the main goal is to stop exponential wealth gain and saturation of a certain class of item then surely the true 'fix' would be for those items to just degrade forcing the need for replacements as a whole, not just on a few?	Posted by eversorgod#5722 on Oct 27, 2013, 12:14:59 PM Alpha Member Quote this Post
" eversorgod wrote: Would a durability feature on every item not be a more simple way of having the same outcome but to greater effect?. Certainly not against a new orb which can temporally increase item effectiveness vs longevity but if the main goal is to stop exponential wealth gain and saturation of a certain class of item then surely the true 'fix' would be for those items to just degrade forcing the need for replacements as a whole, not just on a few? It depends. A durability system must be unavoidable and must sink items, not currency, for it to have an effect on market saturation. Furthermore, a long term solution must be consistent. If the mechanic is not consistent then it will not counter loot devaluation, rather it will merely act as an inhibitor - slowing the process. Hardcore is an example of such an inhibitor and I encourage you to read the excerpt in the OP about it. Spoiler " The Solution and Why Hardcore isn't Enough So I thought about how to counter diminishing returns on loot in long term leagues. The solution is rather obvious but implementation is tricky. You must introduce a consistent item sink for demanded items. Again, the concept is simple but poses problems. Hardcore is an example of an inconsistent item sink. In hardcore characters who die are transferred to softcore in effect removing their gear from the economy and encouraging players to start new characters, increasing the demand of items. Items leave the economy and demand increases. The problem with hardcore however is that it hinges on consistent death. Deaths are not consistent and depend on carelessness, which on an individual basis should diminish. Deaths also become less frequent as gear improves relative to content. What this means is that hardcore is not a reliable way to stabilize loot devaluation over the long term. Hardcore is only an inhibitor of loot devaluation. Hardcore is also not a workable solution for casual players. By its nature it is challenging and subverts a sense of progress through time investment. Not to mention dying as a result of something out of your control can be mind racking. Punishment like that should be a choice, not a requirement. The ideal solution, if there was one, would work in softcore and it would be consistent. What we need is a consistent demand for items that also adapts to changes in collective gear progression, and then we need a sink for those items. Naturally, the most demanded items are the most powerful but we don't want to indiscriminately destroy the most powerful items of a player. Doing so would undermine a player's sense of progression and accomplishment which is after all the point of an ARPG. We also don't want to make the most powerful items common, as that would undermine the accomplishment of long term progression and trade in general. New ladders, actually, can be thought of as a periodic item sink for all items. Some players are not keen on the idea of losing all progress, however, and that is why we have separate tributary permanent leagues. Ladders don't actually solve the problem they merely reset it. Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Oct 27, 2013, 12:42:11 PM Quote this Post
Interesting idea. I can't help think that there'll be some unwanted side effects but I can't come up with any at the moment. So, friendly bump! ^_^ IGN: SYIE	Posted by Syie#6370 on Oct 28, 2013, 9:03:37 PM Quote this Post
1. Make ethereal orbs common similar to the drop rate of chance orbs perhaps. 2. Make a reverse operation orb. An orb which removes ethereal from an item (and the bonuses) and makes it a normal permanent item again. This "Materialization Orb" would be VERY rare. Somewhere in the 30 Ex+ range. This creates another large currency sink and allows T1 items to be made ethereal. Naturally it will be possible to forget or underestimate the degeneration of the ethereal item and you may take some T1 items out of the game this way also. Without this reverse process, players would have to use a mirror to copy their T1 item and then make the copy ethereal (if this would even be allowed) 3. Degeneration rate suggestions Item - \| - Degenerates Weapons - On hit Shields - On Block + (On Damage Taken / 2) Quivers - On Time Chest - On Damage Taken + (On Movement / 20) Helmet - On Damage Taken + (On Movement / 15) Belt - (On Damage Taken / 2) + (On Movement / 20) Boots - (On Damage Taken / 5) + On Movement Rings - On Time Amulet - On Time Also, Degeneration should happen Out of Town only. I read your whole post so I know this may be contrary to what you were thinking because casters and ranged attackers have an edge in degeneration rates but there is simply no way to fight the logic here. A melee tank getting hit hundreds of times will simply wear out his armor faster than a caster who rarely, if ever, takes a hit. This could be partially offset by the way you determine initial duration of the ethereal item. Robes may have less duration than heavy armor to begin with, which makes sense. "Act as if what you do makes a difference. It does." - William James "People are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be." - Abraham Lincoln	Posted by xHavoCx#0038 on Nov 2, 2013, 10:33:00 AM Quote this Post
" Item - \| - Degenerates Weapons - On hit Shields - On Block + (On Damage Taken / 2) Quivers - On Time Chest - On Damage Taken + (On Movement / 20) Helmet - On Damage Taken + (On Movement / 15) Belt - (On Damage Taken / 2) + (On Movement / 20) Boots - (On Damage Taken / 5) + On Movement Rings - On Time Amulet - On Time These aren't bad. I'm perfectly content to let someone else figure out the particulars. My main goal in writing OP was to posit a radical idea which I thought could work, at least in theory. Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507 Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Feb 17, 2014, 8:17:59 AM	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Nov 2, 2013, 10:03:56 PM Quote this Post
bump Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Feb 17, 2014, 8:18:14 AM Quote this Post
If nothing else, this thread is a prime example why spoiler tags should be mandatory in all feedback threads :P Really man, great read! @"General" Duribility: A system-wide durability mechanic could work, provided: a) items are never outright destroyed when their durability runs out--this would be contrary to the purpose of permanent leagues. b) repairing durability consumes other items; not currency (as mentioned by Veta). Basically, don't think of it as D2's durability, which was primarily a gold sink, not an item sink. We already have a "gold" sink--maps. Some potential drawbacks to losing durability: maximum item quality is reduced (and can drop into the negatives), items become disabled until repaired, or items become less "effective" until repaired. @Ethereal Orbs: I have nothing constructive to add, I've barely begun studying economics, and even then only on Khan Academy as a hobby. You make a compelling argument and it sounds great to me. My one concern: I would think Ethereal orbs would need to be valuable--relative to the market value of the items they target, at any given time--to work (just my gut, which I've learned to trust; it's so much smarter than I am ;D), but yet drop rates must exceed the rate at which those items enter the market. This seems sustainable in Hardcore and the Ladders, but an impossible balance to achieve in Standard, so long as it continues to receive supply from every other league. This, I believe, is one of the most significant problems with Standard. One that, albeit, only expedites a preexisting issue inherent to all in-game economies, but the rate at which it does so, I think, is poses serious obstacle for any balance to succeed. Perhaps I am wrong, as I said, I am uneducated on the matter and am basically talking out of the ass ;) Either way, thank you for your contribution! Fantastic feedback. As the kids like to say "11/10; would read again." Devolving Wilds Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.”	Posted by CanHasPants#3515 on Feb 17, 2014, 10:50:19 AM Quote this Post
" My one concern: I would think Ethereal orbs would need to be valuable--relative to the market value of the items they target, at any given time--to work (just my gut, which I've learned to trust; it's so much smarter than I am ;D), but yet drop rates must exceed the rate at which those items enter the market. This seems sustainable in Hardcore and the Ladders, but an impossible balance to achieve in Standard, so long as it continues to receive supply from every other league. This, I believe, is one of the most significant problems with Standard. One that, albeit, only expedites a preexisting issue inherent to all in-game economies, but the rate at which it does so, I think, is poses serious obstacle for any balance to succeed. That's a smart observation. In practice, the supply of good items in standard is greater than any other league, therefore we can expect the quality of ethereal candidates to be proportionally greater too, assuming no change in the supply of ethereal orbs. I don't see that as a problem, however. Fundamentally the mechanism described in the OP is self regulating, therefore the market will find an equilibrium that is a function of the incoming supply. If we did want to mitigate the greater item supply of standard, one way to do that would be by increasing the supply of ethereal orbs. Either through a recipe or drop rate buff. Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056 Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434 Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507	Posted by Veta321#3815 on Feb 17, 2014, 5:24:51 PM Quote this Post