I wish it made sense to craft before end game

When open beta dropped I rolled a new character and tried to play with that in mind. I ended up using the equivalent of a couple exalt before reaching level 60. Sure it didn't make much economic sense and I knew it at the time, but boy did it make for a much better item progression and playing experience. Admittedly I was usually under leveled for content, but that added to the fun.

GGG made a fun crafting system but it almost never makes economic sense to use. At the moment it's another reason why I'd like a self found or bind-on-equip league.

Cross-Post from the SFL thread, but inspired by this discussion and I think appropriate to post
Spoiler
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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's not crafting vs trading, people. It's crafting vs (gear) farming.


Good posts from you SMB. As I see it there are 3 routes to upgrading items.

1) Farming Gear - Investment of Time
2) Crafting - Investment of Currency
3) Trading - Investment of (Less) Time or Currency (minus trade value of obsolete/used gear)

Eliminating trade alone doesn't force players to choose 2 but it does make the choice more direct. Do I spend time farming or do I invest currency which itself takes time to find. The opportunity cost is time. So if all that matters is time, the question then becomes what is the most efficient use of my time. Ideally it would come down to RNG. It does not. Things are further complicated by the diminishing returns on farming currency at higher levels which contribute to the 'Mapping and End Game Crafting' opportunity cost of currency.

Gear=Time*RNG, does not diminish
Currency = Time*RNG, diminishes at higher levels
Opportunity Cost of Currency = Mapping and End Game Crafting

Because the time cost of currency decreases relative to the time cost of gear the opportunity cost of currency becomes greater at higher levels. I would make a few suggestions on top of a self found or bind-on-equip ruleset. More consistent currency/gear drop rates from level 1 to level 100, pending the level of content and the availability of IIQ/IIR. I mention IIQ/IIR because the facility to stack them at a higher level, especially in a group, could discourage rerolling a new character. Gear drop rates should also be tempered at higher levels as far as I know they are not, and that contributes to the increasing opportunity cost of currency. In this way we will have a consistent time opportunity cost for crafting versus finding gear, no matter how far you are into the game.

That's not the whole story though. Because currency directly affects the quantity and rarity of loot from maps it must be as valuable as the total improvement in loot. That is difficult to qualify but given that you can choose what you craft and you cannot choose what items drop that opportunity cost is more balance under a SF/BOE ruleset.

For example, if I am looking for a bow upgrade and I Chaos a map then any rare thicket bows or currency I otherwise would not have found are the opportunity cost of that Chaos orb versus using it to craft. Furthermore, if that map drops any maps that otherwise would not have dropped then any thicket bows that subsequent map drops are a function of the original Chaos. If I use an additional Chaos, perhaps to roll Maze, then its opportunity cost would be the additional bows, currency and maps that would not have been found after using just one Chaos. The second Chaos has significantly smaller economic benefit, but properties like Maze are highly desirable and make up for the increased opportunity cost. The probability costs could be calculated but the maths are complicated. I would suggest making Maze or other such highly desirable map properties implicit or rebalanced with currency opportunity cost in mind.

Under the current system a single currency is always better spent on maps versus crafts. Which means the time cost of spending currency on a lvl 38 Grove Bow is as long as it takes to find as many Thicket Bows, currency and maps you would have otherwise not found if that currency was spent on a map instead. Ergo the opportunity cost of crafting lvl 38 Grove Bow = Time Cost of Finding Late Game Gear without spending said currency on map.

That's not necessarily a bad thing if we had more currency than we needed to spend on maps. Rebalancing highly desirable map mods will abate the problem but it would be good if currency was common enough that the opportunity cost of getting desirable map mods diminished greatly with each marginal currency spent. In that way players would be encouraged to use a minimal amount of currency on maps and the rest on crafting (or trading).

I also recognize the solution I described hinges greatly on balanced drop rates. Finding the right drop rates would be a trial and error process best suited for small custom leagues.

Lastly the difference between Self-Found and Bind-on-Equip is that the latter allows for upgrades via method (3) but removes the value of obsolete or used gear, thus not being overwhelmingly the right choice against methods (1) or (2). However, under a BOE ruleset there's still no reason to Chaos an ilvl38 Grove Bow if somebody found a good ilvl38 Grove Bow and saved it to trade. BOE does however mean that very powerful used gear can no longer be arbitraged and would mean methods (1) and (2) are highly viable for end game itemization.


Summary:
### - Self Found or Bind-on-Equip ruleset
### - Consistent gear and currency drop rates regardless of game progress, but accounting for the relative level of content and availability of IIQ/IIR at that level.
### - Rebalance highly desirable map mods like 'Maze' with crafting currency opportunity cost in mind, this should lead to a diminished economic benefit for spending additional currency on maps to get their mods just right
### - Balance crafting currency drop rates such that we have more currency than maps on which to spend, assuming the benefit of spending additional marginal currency on a map is greatly diminished
### - Custom Leagues with control over drops rates would be ideal to find a happy drop rate balance.
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Oct 11, 2013, 1:07:36 AM
Crafting is when you sell the shopkeeper boots and a quicksilver flask to get +%ms boots.

Gambling is when you use up your currency on a chance for an upgrade.
When you say self found or bind on equip league:
Are you assuming the same drop rates, or different drop rates?
Since drop rates do not affect economic sensibility I would have no problem with them staying the same or changing.
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:13:10 PM
You would have to think up a pretty damn genius mechanic to have a good reason to use a Chaos on a level 38 Grove Bow instead of a level 78 chest, or a level 71 map. Simply put, currency is always going to be best utilized on the best, highest-itemlevel bases. This has nothing to do with trading. Even if you're going fully self-found, the incentive is to hoard your orbs.

It's pretty easy to think of some shitty mechanics. For example, you could make it so Orbs have some kind of itemlevel themselves, and thus low-level orbs could only give low-level affixes. However, that in turn kills the farming efficiency of rerolling; it's the equivalent of removing gems completely from Diablo 2, giving low-level characters nothing of value to farm. The cure is worse than the disease in that case.

Thus, for the most part the best way to make players to use orbs before Act 3 Merciless is to make them desperate. If someone has an annuity and you wipe out their bank account somehow, suddenly they're calling JG Wentworth; for the same reason, a character who can't trade for Docks-farmed items (too high level requirements) and doesn't have good enough gear to progress will go ahead and use some of his orbs in desperation to try to get an upgrade.

In all seriousness, I think this is the best way to go. Make monsters drop more orbs and less gear; the "less gear" will push them up against the wall, and the "more orbs" will mean they can afford to actually use them. The "less gear" part would also cut down the quantities of Docks-farmed gear, meaning that even once they hit that critical progression it'll still be a little harder to just trade your way in, which would lead to slightly more orb use.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:15:44 PM
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Azhukar wrote:
Crafting is when you sell the shopkeeper boots and a quicksilver flask to get +%ms boots.

Gambling is when you use up your currency on a chance for an upgrade.


I agree with the sentiment but as far as the community is concerned, orbs=crafting.
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:15:37 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
You would have to think up a pretty damn genius mechanic to have a good reason to use a Chaos on a level 38 Grove Bow instead of a level 78 chest, or a level 71 map. Simply put, currency is always going to be best utilized on the best, highest-itemlevel bases. This has nothing to do with trading. Even if you're going fully self-found, the incentive is to hoard your orbs.
...


Yes that's a fair point. Desperation and an aversion to trading/grinding was why I crafted and ultimately why it was so satisfying. A genius mechanic would be nice though. :)
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Hey if you run EK life builds it makes sense to roll high life coral/res rings, did it to level 83 on HC one month...but any other build, maybe not =D
Return to this flameless sunder
Where exiles burn and the joyless wander;
Frozen lore beneath chaotic thunder,
Dominus returns to send us under.
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CharanJaydemyr wrote:
Or just, yknow, don't trade.


Sure, I'd like to play with other like minded players, perhaps exclusively. We wouldn't participate in the existing standard economy so maybe we should be separated from it. Maybe in an entirely separate league.
Want to Fix the Economy, Bad Loot, Trade and Legacy PvP? pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/548056
Open Letter to Qarl on Crafting Value pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434
Biggest Problem with Mapping: Inconsistent Risk to Reward pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/612507
Last edited by Veta321#3815 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:33:33 PM
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CharanJaydemyr wrote:
Or just, yknow, don't trade.
I really hate the idea of a Self-Found League — because as I said, orb hoarding has nothing to do with trading — but I honestly do feel the self-found player's pain.

Essentially it comes down to how you get wealth when you farm. For a trader, it comes from three primary sources:
1. Orbs
2. Direct gear upgrades, stuff you actually wear
3. Tradeable gear — good stuff, but you won't wear it yourself

The thing is, for self-found (who isn't a compulsive reroller with tons of different characters) only the first two apply; everything in the third category is shrunk drastically and shoved into the first. Self-found means sacrificing #3.

Thus, the balance between these three categories is important; it determines how hard the game pushes players to trade. Pushing players to trade to some degree is a good thing; trading evens out RNG and you need to compensate to a certain degree because dealing with asshats isn't fun. However, there is also such a thing as pushing them too hard. Judging from the rampant popularity of the SFL threads (despite their utterly ineffective solution), I think it's safe to say the game is currently pushing too hard.

Thus: more orbs, less gear drops. The downside to this is that it would diminish Category 2 a bit, and category 2 is actually extremely fucking important; however, it is my belief that making your own upgrade with orbs is an equally exhilarating "loot-finding" experience, and thus the proposed change wouldn't have terrible impacts on overall loot-finding enjoyment.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:38:18 PM

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