What Exactly Killed Diablo 3's Economy (and Implications on PoE)

you're overthinking it.

what killed the d3 economy was best-in-slot unique pieces.

a "properly" geared character would basically wear nothing but top uniques with perhaps a FEW rare items.

PoE is converging on this mentality as well, and it ill have the same disastrous implications for the long term.

even blizzard getting rid of the AH won't fix it.

Improving 4.1 (itemization) benefits everyone.
Improving 4.2 (silent auctions) and 4.3 (no instant trading) only benefits people who trade.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Go back to the first time you ever found a unique item in an ARPG. Presumably, you didn't have a lot of market experience yet, as you were kind of learning the ropes, and all of a sudden you see those orange-brown letters. You get excited. Have you won the lottery, and are about to either trade this away, or wear ubergear for a few levels? You don't know, but the anticipation is awesome.

Then you identify it. It has this mod and this mod. How much is it worth? You still don't know, but you're a little closer to solving the puzzle. You are still hopeful, but depending on what you saw a little bit more realistically so... either your hopes were confirmed or slightly minimalized.

Actually you've got this entirely wrong for Diablo 1 veterans, given that many of us played single player/offline first -- the shareware demo had a few low level uniques in it and naturally you didn't wonder 'how much is it worth?', at least not in player-trade value.

Hell, some people who were around for D1's launch didn't even think about player trading at first blush with Diablo 1.

Compared to the very basic blue items, uniques of D1 were pretty crazy. They could both do 'unique' things AND they broke the rule of two attributes (prefix and suffix). This is of course before 'rares', which only broke the latter rule.

Rares were the single-most direct cause for people losing appreciation for unique items.

So while what you've said may apply to many ARPG players, I feel it doesn't apply to those who were here from the so-called start, which might as well be Diablo 1 Shareware. For us, player trading is almost tacked on, some byproduct of multiplayer wherein you can share unnecessary loot with friends.

Some part of me still marvels at the concept of an ARPG economy.

So no, when a unique dropped, my first unique (Torn Flesh of Souls, of course), I didn't wonder what it was worth. I put it on and was like 'this is awesome, so much better than those rags!'

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Charan wrote:

So while what you've said may apply to many ARPG players, I feel it doesn't apply to those who were here from the so-called start, which might as well be Diablo 1 Shareware. For us, player trading is almost tacked on, some byproduct of multiplayer wherein you can share unnecessary loot with friends.

absolutely not.

the start was Roguelikes.

if you missed out on those, you can hardly be called somebody who was playing the genre from the "so-called start"

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tikitaki wrote:

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Charan wrote:

So while what you've said may apply to many ARPG players, I feel it doesn't apply to those who were here from the so-called start, which might as well be Diablo 1 Shareware. For us, player trading is almost tacked on, some byproduct of multiplayer wherein you can share unnecessary loot with friends.

absolutely not.

the start was Roguelikes.

if you missed out on those, you can hardly be called somebody who was playing the genre from the "so-called start"

And did they have unique items and player trading? Did they even have multiplayer?

Please don't get caught up in semantics here. Sometimes I'm fairly sure you're better than that.

If they did, I rescind my point but retain a stance of disagreement with Scrotie's assumption that a unique dropping led to immediate queries of value in what was, let's say, the FIRST isometric action RPG on PC made by Blizzard there mr.smartypants specific enough for you good.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

1. Simplistic itemization.

I am surprised this isn't the key factor in your analysis. Lack of variety in items and builds kills the appeal of any game rather quickly.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

2. Searchable pricing.

I have to disagree with you here. Any game with an economy ends up having a community generated price guide where you can instantly look up the value of any static item (items with random stats similar to rare items are a little trickier to price in any situation and from past experience this is true in AH's as well). Using your own example, D2 had/has numerous price guides yet the game is still fun for lots of people and was fun for lots of people for years despite being able to price almost any item you found.

PoE has poe.xyz and I don't think having that ability to price items based on b/o has ruined the game in any way, has it?

Finding the value of an item you find can be just as much of a thrill as finding the item to begin with.

In terms of an AH though, I agree there can be a disconnect, though I don't know if I would say it is the main cause of a game's failure. If all you are doing is posting the item and never connecting the value of the item with the item itself (post it, sell it, dont even bother to check how much it sold for), that may be a problem.

Weird, I thought what killed the desire to farm was that the drop rate was adjusted due the AH, and so you kept pulling the arm of that slot machine and NEVER winning. Which is odd, because ARPG's are just a long series of fun slot machines where you always have a chance to finding something cool.

Given the loot changes that came to Console D3 and the future changes coming to the xp, I would say Blizzard agrees. Of course, there were other issues too, but Blizzard doesn't seem to agree - unfortunately.


Off topic, perhaps: More unfortunately, I feel GGG is making a similar mistake by adjusting drop rates based on trading and the player-based economy they are after. I do not need legendarys, I just expect to have decent upgrades to my gear before an entire act goes by - something that didn't happen on my last play through (lol at the attempts of crafting).

Any form of trading just feels sort of like cheating to me, like I got something without earning it via the slot machine scenario. Oh well, when this gets to me, I can just piss and moan on the forum and then spend some time testing Grim Dawn.

EDIT - but idk , perhaps the trading stuff they talked about with gamespot will make it feel rather slot machine-ish anyway - I still sort of don't like buying my gear though - random drops and random crafts feel more honest and earned, even if that's not really the case.

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Charan wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Go back to the first time you ever found a unique item in an ARPG. Presumably, you didn't have a lot of market experience yet, as you were kind of learning the ropes, and all of a sudden you see those orange-brown letters. You get excited. Have you won the lottery, and are about to either trade this away, or wear ubergear for a few levels? You don't know, but the anticipation is awesome.

Then you identify it. It has this mod and this mod. How much is it worth? You still don't know, but you're a little closer to solving the puzzle. You are still hopeful, but depending on what you saw a little bit more realistically so... either your hopes were confirmed or slightly minimalized.

Actually you've got this entirely wrong for Diablo 1 veterans, given that many of us played single player/offline first -- the shareware demo had a few low level uniques in it and naturally you didn't wonder 'how much is it worth?', at least not in player-trade value.

Hell, some people who were around for D1's launch didn't even think about player trading at first blush with Diablo 1.

Compared to the very basic blue items, uniques of D1 were pretty crazy. They could both do 'unique' things AND they broke the rule of two attributes (prefix and suffix). This is of course before 'rares', which only broke the latter rule.

Rares were the single-most direct cause for people losing appreciation for unique items.

So while what you've said may apply to many ARPG players, I feel it doesn't apply to those who were here from the so-called start, which might as well be Diablo 1 Shareware. For us, player trading is almost tacked on, some byproduct of multiplayer wherein you can share unnecessary loot with friends.

Some part of me still marvels at the concept of an ARPG economy.

So no, when a unique dropped, my first unique (Torn Flesh of Souls, of course), I didn't wonder what it was worth. I put it on and was like 'this is awesome, so much better than those rags!'

couldn't agree more.... when i first saw sme unique sword in d1 i was like ah unique sword nice, but at the time i was using 2h axes but i said ah lets just give it a try... guess what sword was called grandfather i did 3 times more dmg (dont really know the truth there... this was 15 years ago...) and i caried a shield, i remember everything about that unique and shit that are some nice memories even after so long time)

i got shavs in onslaught i was happy but is it comperable to grandfather, APSOLUTLY NOT (and yes i'm aware i was 10 then and i'm 25 now but the feeling is the feeling)

Thanks for the answers, great post BTW.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Go back to the first time you ever found a unique item in an ARPG. Presumably, you didn't have a lot of market experience yet......

Market experience? Of course I didn't I was playing an aRPG, when aRPGs were aRPGs.

It would appear I am one of the few remaining that still don't have market experience and don't want market experience. The thrill, the value, was in how I could use the item, period.

It's funny how you are telling what did and what didn't kill D3 when the answer is right in front of your nose and the first thing you mention, yet you don't see it.

D3 was dying before it was born, D3 was dying the moment D2jsp took off, D3 was going to die if Blizzard spawned it without changing the model for modern communication. Which is exactly what happened.

They've seen it, eventually.

That a unique dropping would prompt the thought 'how much will I get for this' even as a secondary thought is bad enough, it is, however the first thought for most. THAT is what killed D3, THAT is what killed the aRPG as we knew it and THAT is what will doom PoE if it doesn't act.