Nerf life nodes while boosting base life so life itself isn't nerfed 2: Electric Boogaloo

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Moreover, all the changes are demarcated as being slight. What if they're too slight? If being small is a selling point of your idea then I'd argue that it can only offer a small benefit. Entertainment products do better when people form strong feelings about them (creates impetus to act). Towing the line is a sure-fire way to make sure no one has any strong feelings about it. The absence of dissent is not a goal of game design.

Although I definitely agree that the absence of dissent is not a goal of game design, I absolutely disagree with your that small nudges are irrelevant, and especially that they don't incite strong feelings.

Let's get real about something: the shift in OP-ness from Life to ES after 0.11.0 was a slight one. Seriously. However, it was not so slight that it was not observable, and in a hyper-analytic, constant-comparison, striving-for-OP community, all it takes is a slight underpoweredness to create gigantic outcry. That's exactly what has happened with life balance, in CB, in early OB, and after 0.11.0. The only times players consider A balanced with B is when their power levels are truly too close to call;

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Moreover, all the changes are demarcated as being slight. What if they're too slight? If being small is a selling point of your idea then I'd argue that it can only offer a small benefit. Entertainment products do better when people form strong feelings about them (creates impetus to act). Towing the line is a sure-fire way to make sure no one has any strong feelings about it. The absence of dissent is not a goal of game design.

Although I definitely agree that the absence of dissent is not a goal of game design, I absolutely disagree with your that small nudges are irrelevant, and especially that they don't incite strong feelings.

Let's get real about something: the shift in OP-ness from Life to ES after 0.11.0 was a slight one. Seriously. However, it was not so slight that it was not observable, and in a hyper-analytic, constant-comparison, striving-for-OP community, all it takes is a slight underpoweredness to create gigantic outcry. That's exactly what has happened with life balance, in CB, in early OB, and after 0.11.0. The only times players consider A balanced with B is when their power levels are truly too close to call; a distinct 98 vs a distinct 100, and the 100 is clearly OP and will have more QQ threads than God has angels.

Obviously 90% of those QQ threads will be easily dismissed shit, as 90% of threads on pretty much any widely-used public forum are easily dismissed shit. However, at the core of their argument they will have a good point. When decisions can be made by calculation, they cease to become meaningful choices and become mere... well, calculations. Game balance thrives on the non-calculable; thus, the molehill is indeed a mountain.

At this point in the game, with balance changes like these, the finest of fine-tuning is the preferred method. If the change doesn't go quite far enough and needs another slight nudge, then another slight nudge. But wild changes in any direction are not the way to go here.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

When decisions can be made by calculation, they cease to become meaningful choices and become mere... well, calculations.

Should have just written this.

Wake me up when energy shield is different enough from life (via changes to ZO and GR) that it becomes a meaningful choice. Constantly trying to get life and energy shield correct to each other on numbers is a fool's errand.

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pneuma wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

When decisions can be made by calculation, they cease to become meaningful choices and become mere... well, calculations.

Should have just written this.

Wake me up when energy shield is different enough from life (via changes to ZO and GR) that it becomes a meaningful choice. Constantly trying to get life and energy shield correct to each other on numbers is a fool's errand.

Best feedback in this thread thus far.

And yeah, your point is strong; only when ES and life feel like distinctly different survivability options will the non-calculable effect truly shine.

I personally would like to see life nodes buffed. Up to the point where I DONT have to spend most of my points on life when making a life based character. Kaoms appears to be really getting in the way of that though.

Ideally, the amount of passive points required to achieve a decent life pool should be roughly the same as the number required when building for ES, maybe just slightly weaker and requiring maybe 2-3 more points due to the natural resistance to status ailments life has.

Also, ES needs to be changed in a way that makes it different from life.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

At this point in the game, with balance changes like these, the finest of fine-tuning is the preferred method. If the change doesn't go quite far enough and needs another slight nudge, then another slight nudge. But wild changes in any direction are not the way to go here.

This kind of fatuous preening would be funny if the end of Beta wasn't looming in sight. We all know GGG is taking a huge gamble in its determination to release PoE on schedule, regardless of the fact that there will inadequate time to thoroughly Beta test their final balance tweaks. It'd be one thing if all that remained were subtle refinements, but in reality there are serious playability issues that have festered unresolved for months. Life Node balancing is not even one of the most severe issues, not compared to desync, deadend map drops, RNG crafting roadblocks, broken OP Uniques, and the grossly unbalanced ES/CI quagmire. Let's just hope GGG has under wraps some breathtaking surprises in store for us at Final Release, because the game in its current state is far from being ready for prime time.

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thedestroyerofkids wrote:

I personally would like to see life nodes buffed. Up to the point where I DONT have to spend most of my points on life when making a life based character. Kaoms appears to be really getting in the way of that though.

Kaom's is a non-factor, it will be effectively nerfed anyway when higher tier +life affixes arrive.

The real issue is that with these high tier life affixes, getting life from gear is pretty much mandatory.

Scrotie's suggestion largely addresses that by increasing life gained from levels (not gear dependent at all) and strength (both gear dependent and tree dependent). Nerfing the life nodes is not so people take them less, but to compensate for the increase in base life.

There are three problems that I see with this suggestion:

1. If you raise life gained from levels by a flat amount, you'd have to raise it again when higher tier gear is introduced, since levels have diminishing returns. What I mean by that is when the game is expanded, (new act, new affixes) The average player might be 83 instead of 80, but average decent +life affix will give 100 instead of 80.

2. If you make life nodes weaker, it has a visual impact on a player who's used to seeing nodes at 6% (and 8% not too long back). It makes the nodes extremely "unattractive". I think this is more of a personal thing though so I'm not sure if it's a factor.

3. Buffing strength has a similar issue to point 1. It's easier to get strength from gear than it is from the skill tree. This will be amplified when higher tier strength affixes arrive.

So what I suggest as an alternative is this:

- Make the life per level formula scale with the character level itself. Instead of each level giving 6 life, make it give 4 + RoundDown(CLvl/10). It can be 6 or 5 instead of 4, or CLvl/5, but that's really just a fine-tuning thing.

- Make life nodes weaker BUT also make them attractive, by giving them side bonuses (evasion/armour/damage/whatever).

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

1. Kaom's users are actually the primary losers. From seventy-some percent to fifty-some percent isn't nothing, and it's definitely not nothing. This is based off your numbers.

2. The examples in the OP, as well as your numbers, clearly indicate that mainstream builds are not nerfed; 4953>4591. Give me any character you currently have, link the gear and the passive tree, and we can run the numbers together. "Not nerfed" is my prediction, unless it uses Kaom's.

3. I do not consider the rare +life affix to be well-balanced; it utterly dwarfs other affixes in importance. Reducing dependence on it is a good thing.

4. The Strength change does less for Witches, et cetera; less isn't nothing. This still falls under my challenge in #2.

The main point for suggesting the changes in the first post was to reduce the reliance on hp% passive nodes, correct?

Let me post my calculations once again before I explain my point.


Your stated point is correct: the Kaoms build slightly nerfed while the non-kaoms build got slightly buffed. But that assumes that people don't change their builds at all.

Remember what you said?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Why? Because it doesn't really change the source of player survivability in life-based builds. For those who are still going life (and not ES, after life was nerfed), it's still Path of Life nodes, because the core issue hasn't been addressed at all. Base life is still pitiful and calculated exactly the same as it was prior to 0.11.0; the only reliable ways to increase your life are still item affixes on gear, and lots of passive nodes.

Do you realize that your proposed changes does nothing to resolve the "path of life nodes" problem?

In the build I linked, it has 246% worth of life nodes (32 life nodes). This gets nerfed to 178% based on your proposed changes.
In order to achieve the same amount of total HP (with the above gear) you will need to get a minimum of 163% hp (30 life nodes, based on the posted build).

Tell me, how is 30 life nodes vs 32 life nodes any LESS "path of life nodes"?

The majority of life STILL comes from gear (which is intended according to GGG's design philosophy), and Kaoms is still the larges source of base life on gear. 9hp per level/doubled hp from str is barely noticable when combined with your proposed nerfs to the life nodes themselves.

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pneuma wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

When decisions can be made by calculation, they cease to become meaningful choices and become mere... well, calculations.

Should have just written this.

Wake me up when energy shield is different enough from life (via changes to ZO and GR) that it becomes a meaningful choice. Constantly trying to get life and energy shield correct to each other on numbers is a fool's errand.

This is the best feedback in the thread.