Our view on map drop rates
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Hi guys,
This is posted in response to the Map Drop Rates thread. Here are some observations on the current usage of the map system: a) Players are not using enough chisels. I'm going to raise the drop rate of chisels in 0.9.12d. They are an important tool in helping get those maps that don't quite have complex enough mods to yield a whole new map on average. b) Players are not playing hard enough maps (in terms of mods). If you don't have mods on it, its yield may not average a new map on average. For players who are making theirs rare with difficult mods, they get more maps than they spend, on average. c) The nature of randomness means that conclusions drawn about playing low numbers of maps are dangerously misleading. Even when I was averaging 1.5 maps per map, I still had a run of six maps in a row where no new maps were found. I later had two maps in a row where I found three or more maps per run. That is randomness! d) On average, players are finding more maps now. e) On average, players are finding more items from maps now. f) On average, players are reaching higher level maps more easily now. g) Players appear to be running more maps than they were before the patch. h) Most players are choosing maps that would have been good in 0.9.11, without switching to the mods that produce the best results in 0.9.12. i) The modelling we were using does not account for some ways that maps are lost (disconnections, etc), so we are increasing the drop rate of maps in 0.9.12d to compensate. Remember, if you get a bunch of people in a room to flip coins and count how many heads they get, a whole bunch of people are going to not get as many heads as they should on average and will feel that the system is unfair. For every person who has a bad experience with a string of eight maps, someone else is basking in riches. This same principle applies to everything else in this type of Action RPG that uses extreme randomness for its item system. We'll continue to monitor feedback and statistics. Thanks again for the testing. Last edited by Chris#0000 on Sep 12, 2012, 6:25:02 PM
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I'm one of those that are supposed to get more maps now than before (I didn't use any quantity gear for non-bosses and only had 31% for bosses).
The difference in map is almost non-existant for me. While it's totally possible that I'm just having bad luck, it really looks like something is working incorrectly as I have big trouble finding maps even when I do maps that have 40% bigger packs and 50%+ item quantity. Also, it's very very hard for me to actually reach higher level maps (I did two 64 maps as my highest maps so far). I'm always using alchemy orbs on my maps to have as much quantity as possible (and I do almost every mods) but it's just not enough to reach higher maps. Personally, I think there could be a bonus to map drops (only maps) depending on the amount of mods on a map. Also, it's quite disheartening to find level 60 maps when running 63-64 maps because you have to start from scratch yet again. It would help a lot if there was a higher bias to get maps of equal level and maybe even a game limitation to getting maps that are 2 or 3 levels under your current map level (a 60 map just couldn't drop while in a 66 map for example). Build of the week #9 - Breaking your face with style http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y
IGN: Poltun |
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" Yep, and naturally, only the ones with the bad experience whine on the forums. Build of the week #2 : http://tinyurl.com/ce75gf4
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" The ones with bad experiences are in the top 20 ladder positions and are running a lot more maps than average. Ive ran some 40+ odd maps since 9.12c and gotten a net negative return of about 30 maps back. My experience is mirrored by other top lvl players. Ive also been almost exclusively running high quantity aka difficult 40%+ maps (based on the stated design intent, harder maps=more maps) The chisels thing is a HUGE factor to have included in modeling but not accounted for actual drop rates ingame... average out 20% quantity to every map ran and those 40% maps become 60%'ers. Pre patch I considered 40% to be "not quite enough" IIQ on gear to break even and 60% was generally a bit more than break even. So yes that 20% from chisels will make a big difference. Looking forward to testing 9.12D, these changes seem to be a step in the right direction. Would it also be possible to Add Chisels to the vendor to combat the RNG a little more? (possibly for sale for almost unused currency like transmute orbs?) Last edited by blackadda#0585 on Sep 12, 2012, 6:51:56 PM
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" I did .. a lot of maps before 0.9.12, and always had some spare in stash BUT running 60-62 lvl over and over was simple boring! (after some time :) ) What was the highest lvl dropped? how many 65+ were dropped? Give us some significant lvl boost! ign: Ron Last edited by Alegor#4137 on Sep 12, 2012, 7:28:10 PM
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so i've bought a lvl 64 white map, moded it with chisels to 20% quality, used an alc, finished the map. Rewards: 1 x 67 map, 2 x 64, 2 x 60, 1 unique.
tried the 67 map, used an alc first, useless spent 4 chisels just to see that i've added 4% quality (fail), lost 80% xp from the flicker dudes, no maps dropped. But overall from that first 64 map, i have managed to gather around 13 extra maps. |
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" You cant find lvl 67 maps in lvl 64 maps by the way. |
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At the moment I would say i got aproximately 0,8 map drops per map but it might very well be just random.
What I wanted to say about the topic is that i greatly appreciate the changes towards making it necessary to play harder maps while giving us greater reward for it and encouraging using the stronger gear, instead of the weaker mf gear. It makes the endgame much much more fun and greater in variety than it was before where you just did blue maps with large and monster pack size to get max xp and still great drops with no risks. Imo it is ok that the map mods tend to greatly counter some builds, which encourages the players to have multiplye builds which then can do good in the map mods where the other builds fail. I myself have 1 character above 75, 2 above 60 and 1 close to 60 which gives me enough build variety to face every possible map mod combination. If this was intended I would though welcome some method that makes it easier to switch gear and gems between characters because sometimes it takes me quiete a while to fully reasses all the things. Last edited by Shyrk#7150 on Sep 12, 2012, 7:25:28 PM
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should the accessibility of difficult endgame really be solely defined by RNG?
maybe the sample size isn't very large at the moment especially with a new race going, but for every 1 person saying they're getting map drops there's another 10 to quickly speak up and voice that they aren't having any luck. as for me, i'm still not able to progress at all in maps yesterday/today, i went from being stocked up with at least 10 maps and today i was forced to purchase maps from people in trade. just got out of a 50% quantity temporal chains + monster move/attack/cast speed and didn't get one map from it so what exactly should we be doing to maps in order to actually progress? dumping all of our currency+chisels on low maps to try to get high quantity mods? i think i'm just going to continue sitting on my 64+ level maps as every other high level player is because from the ~10 60 maps i've done with rolling as much quant as possible, i haven't been able to progress past 62s Last edited by teek#7649 on Sep 12, 2012, 7:35:57 PM
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" I am glad you are addressing the chisel issue in some way, they really are necessary for maps higher than level 66 to even give a chance of progressing to a higher level map. I disagree that harder maps with mods that provide quantity are better than maze/area/monster pack size etc maps. They just are not. I sampled about a large set of maps both before and after this latest patch with quantities all above 80% at least, and got significantly less maps in return, all of which were a lot lower then the map level of the current one. This is simply because the maps are just too small for a lot of them. I think the overall area of most maps needs to be doubled to begin with, or have a natural 50% increase in size. That is another issue, the range of maps dropped in higher level maps. I really think low level maps should not have a chance to drop in higher level maps, that a range should be implemented that maps that drop can not be more than 2-3 levels below the current map and more than 2 levels of the current map. This will still be offset by the fact that there is still the high enough chance that no maps will drop at all. I can't say how terrible it is to do lvl 69 maps, THE end game maps, and have nothing to show from them loot/orb/map drop wise. I am probably one of the few people on the server that has done a good few of them, and I believe the best drop I had in the 6-7 lvl 69 maps I have done was a level 67 map, and for half of these lvl 69 maps the only maps that dropped were level 60-61. That is just ridiculous and should not be possible when you must consider the amount of resources and time that is spent to get to that level of map to begin with. |
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