[2.0]Rathik's NEWBIE FRIENDLY FUN&CHEAP FARMER, DPS Summoner. High AOE DMG, SURVIVAL."The Matriarch"

"

raics wrote:

"

kompaniet wrote:

not sure if minion damage beats spell echo but i don't think so. added fire might also add more damage but there is no way to know yet until we get minion dps stats in game. it's only speculation at this point and time.

Echo is a pretty huge dps boost with 52% more dps, it beats even beta minion damage which has 49% more. It's a bit more tricky comparing it to current minion damage, you need to know your total increased damage for spectres to compare it. Generally it isn't that hot for a dedicated summoner which tends to have a lot of IMD.

Added fire is a multiplier only if that's the only source of added damage they have, if you also run hatred, added chaos, wrath/anger in beta or any other source of added damage it's not a multiplier anymore. But, if we assume you run just L20 hatred with a bit of aura effect which brings it up to 40%, then L20 added fire would be 27% more damage, which is a far cry from echo or beta minion damage and it can only go down from there.

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

That's interesting. Added fire isn't a multiplier if you use hatred or another added damage source? Is that a change they made in beta or does it also work that way on live and I never knew it?

"

raics wrote:

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

It always worked like that, it can't really work any other way. Added damage is additive by its nature, similar to damage increases, the sum of all added damage you got is a multiplier so an individual bonus acts as a multiplier only if you got no more than one. It's especially obvious with percentage added damage, they use a percentage of base so they act exactly the same as an 'increased damage' bonus, they are just a separate stack.

There is an exception, of course, if two added damage bonuses have a dependency they will keep acting as multipliers. For instance, if you had a physical sword and equipped abyssus the flat damage on it would effectively be a multiplier and if you turned on hatred it would also be a multiplier because it depends on your flat physical damage total.

So whether or not it's still a multiplier is irrelevant, it will add the same amount of damage no matter what. Running hatred will not reduce the extra damage my evangelists get from added fire and vice versa.

Still not sure added fire + elemental equilibrium from my ball lightning is worth a slot over spell echo or 2.0 minion damage though.

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

So whether or not it's still a multiplier is irrelevant, it will add the same amount of damage no matter what. Running hatred will not reduce the extra damage my evangelists get from added fire and vice versa.

Still not sure added fire + elemental equilibrium from my ball lightning is worth a slot over spell echo or 2.0 minion damage though.

"

raics wrote:

Right, there is no penalty or anything, it's just a min-maxing trap, so obvious that most overlook it, the effect isn't reduced, it just becomes less significant.

I've seen people evaluating stuff like added lightning for their incinerate build, they apply effectiveness to added lightning, compare to base damage of the spell and BAM - 45% more damage, awesome. However, if you're also running both heralds (and you do) it drops down to 25% more which would be on par with faster casting on an average build. It goes both ways, of course, if you're using added lightning dropping a herald will affect your dps less, and with new added damage to spells on items, heralds/auras and added damage supports lose a lot of their punch.

In your case it's probably fairly easy to determine. Like I said, if you run no other added damage except Hatred on your evangelists, Added fire will give them ~27% more dps. When we add EE to the mix, it improves the elemental damage they do by 50% to ~100% for resistant enemies. If we assume that around a third of the enemies are resistant to an element (enemies have either one elemental res, all three, chaos or none), EE will boost elemental damage by close to 70% on average. That makes Hatred provide 68% more dps and tacking on added fire gives them another 40% more, it's a decent value for the slot.

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

Yes but minion damage is being changed to added damage instead of increased which is going to make it competitive, and I'm not sure what spectres might replace evangelists in act 4 (not an easy feat, evangelists are awesome). It's a question of continuing to level a gem that works great now but might be tossed aside in a month, or level a gem that might be very useful in a month but isn't good now and will hurt my overall dps.

"

raics wrote:

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

Yes but minion damage is being changed to added damage instead of increased which is going to make it competitive, and I'm not sure what spectres might replace evangelists in act 4 (not an easy feat, evangelists are awesome). It's a question of continuing to level a gem that works great now but might be tossed aside in a month, or level a gem that might be very useful in a month but isn't good now and will hurt my overall dps.

Minion damage is getting turned into generic 'more' damage, which will work on pretty much anything and, being a multiplier, it will always have the same effect no matter what.

If you want to be ready for everything and aren't sure of incoming changes to spectres and whatnot, minion damage is the safest bet by far, you can't go wrong with it. Also, it's not exactly that bad now, if your minions already got 100% increased damage it will effectively be worth for 40% more damage, which is pretty decent. It's currently pretty good for caster spectres and bad for zombies or raging spirits which get a lot of increased damage from splash or multistrike.

Minion speed might also be worth a look in 2.0, it also grants attack/cast speed in beta so it should be pretty sweet for some minions, like skeletons or SRS.

"

Rathik2 wrote:

What are the stats for beta minion speed?

Zombies with Multistrike can benefit from it.