The Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Harmful Content

Replies in order:
- Kaoms: Two problems here. For builds that are already using a 2h weapon (2h melee, bows), there is no significant downside. Most builds start from weapon/skill selection, not the other way around. Secondly, ES and life are only in direct competition due to other erroneous design choices. They should never be directly comparable, but they are now.
- Shavs: There are lots of ways to balance it. Taking more chaos damage is decent, but doesn't scare Shavs users nearly enough.
- Auxium: I don't think there are any rares that are better than freeing up a ring or helmet slot (Cannot Be Frozen) nor any belts that directly compete on the +es values at the same time.
- EoC: The drawbacks wouldn't be severe, it's more of a thematic point. There shouldn't be anything wrong with using EoC on a life build.
- Cleave: "What other options do dual wielders have?" is the exact problem. Cleave needs to be equally as strong as all the other options. If DW is too weak, then it needs to be buffed unilaterally.
- Discharge: Something being "weak to reflect" means that it's too strong. What about all the other skills that never even qualify to be weak to reflect? Why does no one say Ice Nova (a similar point blank aoe) is weak to reflect? It's a numbers problem.
- WED: The cost and benefit are too high. The point here is that a support slot is a resource. The highest mana cost multipliers make the most of that resource and raise mana concerns at the same time. If there was a support that gave 1000% more damage with a 10x mana cost multiplier, people would use it and only builds that used it would be viable. This is exactly what has happened with WED over the last two years, to a much less hyperbolic extent.
- IR: And what about when Evasion is better than armor? Then the node is worthless. Its existence is only worthwhile when armor is better than evasion, or for people who want to further ignore 1/3rd of the stats in the game. I find it a very brainless keystone and not creative at all. Nothing like Elemental Equilibrium, by comparison.
- RT: No argument.
- VP: I think just making it the same tradeoff for all characters would be the correct first change. I expect GGG to continue to iterate on all things afterward.
- Str->life: Intelligence does not give flat ES. Strength giving %life would be the better comparison, and would be obvious then how incorrect it is with strength builds getting upwards of 400% increased life and dex builds getting no more than 250% (on average).
- MF: I won't be overly specific on what changes need to happen here since it's being discussed in the thread I linked to. There are lots of good opinions and summaries there, with the highlights being "MF affixes are too strong/values are too high" and "everybody should be able to MF, not just builds tailored for it".
Last edited by pneuma#0134 on Jul 21, 2013, 9:51:45 PM
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Pioneer2 wrote:
I have a few comments with some of the things you mentioned.

For Koam's Heart: Having to use a 2H is a drawback, you miss out on the great defensive benefits that shields provide, or the innate dual wield bonus of dual wielding. Koam's Heart probably does need a change, but look at the 4 month leagues, without Koam's Heart, ES is 99.9% of the time the better option to go. Koam's Heart should not be changd/nerfed until after Life/ES is nerfed, because Koam's Heart is pretty much the only thing keeping ES and Life even remotely comparable. This is a bandaid solution, of course, but you shouldn't tear off a bandaid when you still have use for it.

For Shavronne's Wrappings: Not sure those options are the best way to balance the item. Maybe make it so you take a bit more Chaos damage, maybe a 20% more multiplier or something like that.

For Auxium: This item is overrated, in my opinion. It is a great belt, of course, but I do think there are plenty of rares that can be better in a lot of scenarios.

For Eye of Chayula: Meh. This item has drawbacks, which is you are forced to use up your neck slot for an amulet which pretty much only gives stun immunity. Life doesn't need stun immunity as much, since stun calculations are based on life. Only vs. chargers does it really matter. I don't think this item needs changes, to be honest.

For Cleave: Needs a bit more downsides for dual wielding, I agree. However, what other options do dual wielders have? Most melee abilities only focus on the main hand for damage calculations.

For Discharge: I don't think this ability is that strong. It has great offense, sure, but it is extremely vulnerable to reflect, even with Vaal's Pact. Also, it is very gear dependent, requiring very strong rares, and a couple of pretty pricey uniques to be able to run effectively.

For WED: 70% more elemental damage, not just 70% more damage in general. Considering how much physical damage was buffed, I don't think that such a strong support for elemental damage is such a bad idea. Mana cost is a bit high though, lowering it down to 50% would be nice.

For Iron Reflex: I don't get what you are saying. Hybrid armor/evasion gear are already connected. Evasion and Armor can still be balanced individually. I like this node, it is really clever, pretty much unique to this game. The problem is still that Armor is better than evasion, which makes this node a problem. Making evasion better would make this node more balanced.

For Resolute Technique: I agree, but another big problem with getting crit on melee builds is that there are so few nodes that aren't dagger specific that give crit to melee weapons along with other stats.

For Vaal's Pact: I agree, again. However, it needs to be changed so it is not only less desirable to CI, but more desirable to life at the same time. Not sure how to make that happen, maybe just cutting the regain in half instead of removing it completely. Or another possible change is to increase the amount healed by a %, maybe 10% more life gained from leech. Or make it so you leech mana instantly as well. Who knows.

For Strength giving life: Why compare Strength to Dexterity? Why not compare it to Intelligence, which gives ES? I think this mechanic is fine.

For Magic Find: I never bother with the stuff on gear since I'd much rather have stats that keep me from dying, but what I do presume is that this stat has heavily diminishing returns. I doubt that 200% more item quality means you get 3 times the amount of rares/uniques.



Sorry, decided to reply to everything as you have some things compeltely wrong.

Koams: You miss out on defensive benefit of shields/dw, but in general any bow user uses a 6l bow, some melee a 2h, and most lategame for dps spellcasters often use 2hers. Its not too much of a loss considering the health boost, for losing those defensive stats.

Auxium: has ES values and the resistance to cold that is not available elsewhere. The resistance to cold thing is huge.

Eye of chayula: No drawbacks besides using a slot on your amulet.

Cleave: Here is where you are wrong. Most melee abilities use both weapons. There is only three that use primary hand only. That is leap slam, ground slam, and I forget the third but theres a third. All others alternate, and benefit from the DW increased aspd bonus's. The issue is that cleave and dual strike both use both weapons at the same time, while the other skills alternate the two weapons.

Discharge is very strong at the moment. It doesn't need much to bring it back into line

WED is 70% more ele dmg, and ele dmg is still far in excess of potential physical

IR is in no way unique. The problem isn't that armour is better than evasion, its that evasion vs life is not balanced, becasue the evasion values were nerfed cause of this keystone. Making evasion better makes this better, thats the problem.

Vaal pact needs to effect CI the same way it does life. No regen at all, only leech. Thats the way its worded, but it doesn't quite work cause of ES being different.

MF you seem to misunderstand how it works with IIQ, each point of IIQ gives you more chance of rarity too, because you have more chance of getting 4 items instead of 3, etc
Very good post, OP; a few thoughts.

Shav's could be balanced by simply giving it a ton of chaos res. If you max out your chaos res chaos damage isn't much of a concern with some life. This makes low life builds viable without being EZmode.

With the changes to reflect and evasion Lioneye's isn't as good as it once was. Although I'd still like to see it nerfed further.

Aurumvorax isn't an endgame weapon, which exempts it from balance.

This wasn't mentioned; Reduced Mana being effectively mandatory (unless you're EB and not using % auras) for running auras late game isn't interesting.

I notice you didn't mention Blood Rage, which is effectively free Frenzy charges if you're CI.
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springHeeled wrote:
Very good post, OP; a few thoughts.

Shav's could be balanced by simply giving it a ton of chaos res. If you max out your chaos res chaos damage isn't much of a concern with some life. This makes low life builds viable without being EZmode.

With the changes to reflect and evasion Lioneye's isn't as good as it once was. Although I'd still like to see it nerfed further.

Aurumvorax isn't an endgame weapon, which exempts it from balance.

This wasn't mentioned; Reduced Mana being effectively mandatory (unless you're EB and not using % auras) for running auras late game isn't interesting.

I notice you didn't mention Blood Rage, which is effectively free Frenzy charges if you're CI.


lioneyes is still far better than most bows. The idea it isn't as good as it once was is so completely false.

Balance is not just about endgame, but about all game. Otherwise why not give level 1 people the same item dps as a level 60. It doesn't effect endgame, so why not? Screw balance, only endgame weapons need balancing right? Stupid idea is stupid right?

reduced mana is mandatory, which is sad. Even with EB you would still be using it. It has reached a required status which is unusual.

Blood rage + CI, a lot of Ci builds don't bother using it because its a hassle to constantly cast it, but yes, it is a very big strength of CI builds to get free frenzy charges on kill
I always got the impression that blood rage was another thing to give incentive to play CI melee.
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I'll keep this short. There need to be more enemies that scare ranged users. They either need attacks that are stronger at range in a reverse Point Blank way (Ice Spear is a prime example) or they need to only use their strongest skills at range and those skills need to only hit at range (Perpetus's bear traps is a decent example). Until ranged is as scared of the average mob composition as melee is, there will never be a balance between ranged and melee and "choosing melee" will always be the wrong choice.


This needs its own thread. Seriously. The closest thing we have is Flicker Strike, and even that's a poor example because it screws over melee almost as hard as ranged - it's just that melee is better equipped to facetank stuff.
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Budget_player_cadet wrote:
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I'll keep this short. There need to be more enemies that scare ranged users. They either need attacks that are stronger at range in a reverse Point Blank way (Ice Spear is a prime example) or they need to only use their strongest skills at range and those skills need to only hit at range (Perpetus's bear traps is a decent example). Until ranged is as scared of the average mob composition as melee is, there will never be a balance between ranged and melee and "choosing melee" will always be the wrong choice.
This needs its own thread. Seriously. The closest thing we have is Flicker Strike, and even that's a poor example because it screws over melee almost as hard as ranged - it's just that melee is better equipped to facetank stuff.
Actually, the way things are now, casters are the best equipped to facetank stuff: equal access to Life Leech support gem, and much better shield synergy. Of course, they're also best equipped to meatshield-tank stuff too, so they normally just do that instead.
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Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Jul 22, 2013, 8:32:36 AM
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heyyous wrote:
Lightning arrow: Make the additional hits deal something like 60% less damage. Thank of melee splash here, We have one main target and then we are happy to be damaging all other enemies. Everyone and their brother uses lmp with LA so it makes it like hitting 3 main monsters + splash damage. Currently the only other way for bow skills to effectively hit other targets like lightning arrow does is to use pierce. I have no problem with this and not only do I love that it is different from just spraying but you have to work for it. Pierce needs to have a damage modifier on it. I also think we would probably need an elemental pierce and a physical pierce to keep the damage scaling from being out of whack.


So you're say GG should make the game even more complicated than it alread is in its current itteration?
Absolutely no need for that.
Theres already way too much confusion on *simple* game mechanics that have exception case on this or that scenario --- no thanks!

Pierce is pierce!
And it looks like it's here to stay

Just look at a Projectile Weakness curse gem lv 20/ Q20 (and if you want 100% chance to pierce, just feel free to add the support gem or pick Piercing Shots notable).

Pierce is one of the bread n butters of succesful ranged build and ofc also casters.
Why would you change that mechanic if you don't want to piss off a lot motivated players?

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edits,

Okay my post was a bit rushed

Pierce -- if you want to change it like you suggested, how about a damage effectiveness reduction on shots/casts that pierce to further targets?
Like 50-75% per itteration of piercing?

Now there's KB mechanics on Pirce with Pro Weak curse, and that's prolly an issue ...
Maybe talk about KB + Pierce on pro weak curse? Hmm?
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Last edited by Mune#5000 on Jul 23, 2013, 5:29:45 AM
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pneuma wrote:
Nothing on these forums approaches a petition. Game design is a GGGocracy.

Sadly, if you say it like this, I assume GGG stopped listening to us players .. ?
You didn't give up or?
I don't want to see MF getting completely removed but I'm not 100% opposed to a change either if it helps players to have more fun playing PoE.
If you're leaving PoE, chances are I'll rezz you as my minion! MWHAHAHAH
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Mune wrote:
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pneuma wrote:
Nothing on these forums approaches a petition. Game design is a GGGocracy.

Sadly, if you say it like this, I assume GGG stopped listening to us players .. ?

GGG is free to take or leave any feedback we give.
We are equally free to leave our feedback with no expectation that it will be acted on.

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