Death's Oath CI

this is my tree
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgUABAcEswgIDkgRLxGWFE0V1xfhHRQfAiNNJIsqOCy_LR8zljbFN-w74TwtPQ89X0A2QYxDY0RyRwZMs03YTjJSU1ZjWPVZ81n-X2pmnm0ZbthxTXM_erh8u331f8aBb4M4hAyExIauiGuMdo9Gj_qTHZeVmZqaz53Enjyio6cIpyuuk7T5tve3Mbc-wBrBxcHzw23E9sau14bYJNrd2-fi9-OE62Prn-wY73zwH_ZV-tKYb5J95c8PxNzHO3xaprjKNtido_yrwFFw1XBS8-rzcYFJsjhmTw==
I don't believe, tree-wise, that your tree offers significantly more ES boost than mine, considering how much ES I can get on my other pieces and my 960 ES chest; I have 1 nullification cluster and some witch ES nodes as well. Damage-wise, yours has significantly less crit.

Let's assume these numbers:

750 ES Shield -OR- 2800 Armour Shield
1000 ES Chest -OR- Death's Oath (1800 Armour and lots of other goodies)
400 ES Helm
150 ES Boots
200 ES Discipline
100 ES From other sources


Without the chest and with my build, we get:

( 850 * 2.7 + 750 * 4.5 ) * 1.12 = 6075

With the chest and with a build that gets 90% more increased ES (instead of shield nodes, I counted your build has 70% more increased ES but I'll go with 90% anyway):

( 1000 + 850) * 3.6 * 1.12 = 7459

Now let's take block chance into account.

The 7459 ES build with just the 24% block from the shield = 7459 / 0.76 = 9814 EHP against attacks before resists/armour

The 6075 ES build with 58% block chance = 6075 / 0.42 = 14464 EHP against attacks before resists/armour.

The shield build also gets about 20% spell block, which makes the EHP even against spells. Basically my build has 50% more EHP against attacks+more attack speed+damage aura, but less armour and less crit(though crit doesn't really get utilized with Cyclone, and if you use Soul Taker then your base crit is bad).

If you count the ES exactly it's more like 70% increased ES difference, so it's 7044 ES compared with 6075 ES, or 9269 EHP compared with 14464 EHP.

Assuming you have 300 armor on belt.
Your base armor is 300+1900 = 2200. Total armor = 2200*2.04*1.5 = 6732. 43% reduction
My base armor is 300 + 2800 = 3100. Total armor = 9486. 52% reduction
EHP: 9269/0.48=19310
14464/0.57=25375
Yours has 31% more EHP.
Now lets look at crit
Yours:
260% increased Critical Strike Chance with One Handed Melee Weapons
60% increased Critical Strike Chance
40% increased Critical Strike Multiplier
That's 420% crit chance multiplier and 210% crit mulitiplier

Mine:
140% increased Critical Strike Chance with One Handed Melee Weapons
100% increased Critical Strike Multiplier
220% increased Critical Strike Chance
Thats 460% crit chance multiplier and 300% crit mulitiplier
Assuming 6% crit base on weapon. My tree has a 82.8% increased damage from crit while yours has 52.9%. The difference is about 20%.
My build has a little bit more melee phys damage but yours has more Str so its pretty even
My build has 250 Int from tree while yours has 150 and 50 from Death oath so I have a tiny bit more ES there as well
So I admit, your build has more EHP but less damage and the difference in EHP is a little bit more significant than the different in damage
But how about cost?
1000 ES chest and 2800 shield can be acquired for about 36 Ex in Anarchy
6l Death Oath and 750 ES shield can come out at about 46 Ex in Anarchy

1/ How is crit not utilized with Cyclone? I often 2 shots high level map bosses without even noticing them. Diamond flask works like a champ.
2/ If you link Crit gems or use any other crit piece, the difference in damage will be amplified.
3/ Soul Taker has a low crit chance, thats correct. But it allows you to run hatred, thats 25% more damage on a pure phys build like Cyclone. Soul Taker will also easily have more base damage than 99% of scepters, by far. Axes, generally, have more damage than scepters. That's what you get in exchange for the 6.6% base crit.
4/ Since there's a penalty on death in Anarchy, I believe a straight damage reduction based on armor is more reliable than relying on block. You can spend hours to get 10% exp and all it takes to revert that is a couple unsuccessful block attempts.

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Bumblebutt wrote:

Assuming you have 300 armor on belt.
Your base armor is 300+1900 = 2200. Total armor = 2200*2.04*1.5 = 6732. 43% reduction
My base armor is 300 + 2800 = 3100. Total armor = 9486. 52% reduction
EHP: 9269/0.48=19310
14464/0.57=25375
Yours has 31% more EHP.

Do you know how armour works? You can't apply armour to an EHP calculation without knowing monster damage. Bosses for example will often completely ignore armour unless it's extremely high, not to mention armour doesn't work against elemental damage.

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1/ How is crit not utilized with Cyclone? I often 2 shots high level map bosses without even noticing them. Diamond flask works like a champ.

Because cyclone doesn't convert your physical damage to elemental damage. Lightning Strike with crit is good because you can shock stack, and Glacial Hammer with crit is good because you can freeze lock.

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2/ If you link Crit gems or use any other crit piece, the difference in damage will be amplified.

Not by much, since the crit chance difference is quite minor. Most people get crit multiplier items over crit chance items since it's a lot harder to get from the skill tree.

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3/ Soul Taker has a low crit chance, thats correct. But it allows you to run hatred, thats 25% more damage on a pure phys build like Cyclone. Soul Taker will also easily have more base damage than 99% of scepters, by far. Axes, generally, have more damage than scepters. That's what you get in exchange for the 6.6% base crit.

Of course, but don't advertise that you'll get far better crit if your base crit is significantly lower. (Also, you don't have to use soul taker in order to use hatred)

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4/ Since there's a penalty on death in Anarchy, I believe a straight damage reduction based on armor is more reliable than relying on block. You can spend hours to get 10% exp and all it takes to revert that is a couple unsuccessful block attempts.

Nonsense. Stuff that can kill you in a couple hits doesn't really care about your armour in the first place.

Point is armor does affect EHP. Fact is my armor is about 40% higher than yours. I just pointed out that you're wrong when you ended your EHP comparison before taking armor into consideration. Like you said, you got spell block with your build so EHP against ele damage is about the same, why bring up a non-issue?
Your argument does not say "Crit is bad with Cyclone". It says "Crit is bad with physical damage" and it's wrong. Freezing/shock is cool and all but they're simply icing on the cake. As long as my damage increases when I crit, you can't say crit isn't utilized well with Cyclone. I've reached 26k DPS tooltip damage with Cyclone - 52k real DPS. I don't need status effect because all bosses, except Vaal, die under 4 seconds. Any other mobs, no matter normal or rare, die instantly on impact.
I'm not advertising Soul Taker gives you more crit chance. I stated very clearly that my tree gives you more crit chance and crit multiplier than yours, regardless of your choice of weapons. You do have to have Soul Taker if you want to run Determination, Purity, Hatred and Discipline with CI. All these 4 are essential to any physical CI build and if you dont have Soul Taker, you're missing out on at least 1 of them.

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Bumblebutt wrote:

Point is armor does affect EHP. Fact is my armor is about 40% higher than yours. I just pointed out that you're wrong when you ended your EHP comparison before taking armor into consideration.

Because the armour difference simply isn't that big, as armour below 10k and without endurance charges is only good against small physical hits anyway (in my experience).

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Like you said, you got spell block with your build so EHP against ele damage is about the same, why bring up a non-issue?

EHP being about the same vs. Spells does not mean that EHP is about the same against ele damage. Attacks can consist of elemental damage as well as physical damage. In fact, the hardest hitting attacks in the game are from physical damage mobs with "Extra damage dealt as Fire/Cold".

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Your argument does not say "Crit is bad with Cyclone". It says "Crit is bad with physical damage" and it's wrong. Freezing/shock is cool and all but they're simply icing on the cake. As long as my damage increases when I crit, you can't say crit isn't utilized well with Cyclone. I've reached 26k DPS tooltip damage with Cyclone - 52k real DPS. I don't need status effect because all bosses, except Vaal, die under 4 seconds. Any other mobs, no matter normal or rare, die instantly on impact.

But that DPS can be reached by elemental skills as well, while also benefiting from crit status effects. I'm not saying crit is bad with physical damage, just that it gets under-utilized when you compare it with elemental damage.

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I'm not advertising Soul Taker gives you more crit chance. I stated very clearly that my tree gives you more crit chance and crit multiplier than yours, regardless of your choice of weapons

But the effectiveness of crit from the skill tree directly correlates with your base crit chance.

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You do have to have Soul Taker if you want to run Determination, Purity, Hatred and Discipline with CI. All these 4 are essential to any physical CI build and if you dont have Soul Taker, you're missing out on at least 1 of them.

Yes, which is why my plan is to alternate between Purity and Determination depending on the map (Purity in ele weakness/-max resist maps, determination for the rest). Out of curiosity, do you have enough mana for a curse?

Just because you don't believe in stacking armor doesn't mean that everybody else should. IMO, every bit counts. When my armor is 9500 and yours is 6700, that must count.
Of course elemental damage can get extremely high, even higher than physical for the most part. Point is, when you've reached your full potential, crit effects just dont do anything anymore. When you can 1 shot any mob in the game, why do you need shock and freezing? With a 46 Ex budget (more because you need rainbow, dream frag and many other things), you sure as hell should be 1 shotting most stuffs. Now, you're gonna say that there're tougher things that can use some shock stacks or freezing. The answer is you can't stack shock on bosses like Vaal with crit. My friend runs a 6L Shav dual spork with 4k tooltip DPS and he can't shock Vaal without static blow, which doesn't have anything to do with crit. That's why ele effect is overrated at high level.
I use Alpha howl to run my auras and end up with 80 mana after casting 4 Auras at lvl 20. I can use any support skill in the game.

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Bumblebutt wrote:

Just because you don't believe in stacking armor doesn't mean that everybody else should. IMO, every bit counts. When my armor is 9500 and yours is 6700, that must count.
Of course elemental damage can get extremely high, even higher than physical for the most part. Point is, when you've reached your full potential, crit effects just dont do anything anymore. When you can 1 shot any mob in the game, why do you need shock and freezing? With a 46 Ex budget (more because you need rainbow, dream frag and many other things), you sure as hell should be 1 shotting most stuffs. Now, you're gonna say that there're tougher things that can use some shock stacks or freezing. The answer is you can't stack shock on bosses like Vaal with crit. My friend runs a 6L Shav dual spork with 4k tooltip DPS and he can't shock Vaal without static blow, which doesn't have anything to do with crit. That's why ele effect is overrated at high level.

3k armour counts but perma-freezing and shock stacking doesn't? Ok.

Do you even read? You can't freeze/shock things that can use freeze/shock. Example: Vaal, Shrine Piety...
Other things just die instantly.
Maybe if you have a 5 ex budget, shock can help with clearing speed. But we're talking about 6L death oath and 760 ES shield, so no, freeze/shock doesn't count.
In another word, status effect only counts if it takes you more than a a couple hit to kill stuff. If you're kicking the living shit out of everything in your path and killing most of lvl 73-76 bosses in 2 seconds, status effect becomes the forgotten child begging for attention.

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Bumblebutt wrote:

Do you even read?

Resorting to insults now?

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You can't freeze/shock things that can use freeze/shock. Example: Vaal, Shrine Piety...

How does your 3k extra armour fare against Vaal and Shrine Piety?

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Other things just die instantly.
Maybe if you have a 5 ex budget, shock can help with clearing speed. But we're talking about 6L death oath and 760 ES shield, so no, freeze/shock doesn't count.
In another word, status effect only counts if it takes you more than a a couple hit to kill stuff. If you're kicking the living shit out of everything in your path and killing most of lvl 73-76 bosses in 2 seconds, status effect becomes the forgotten child begging for attention.

I'm not the one who put 40 exalt builds into the equation, you did. Yeah if you just get the best gear in the game then stuff dies really fast, that doesn't mean status effects are useless.

Shrine piety can be affected by status effects, by the way. I've seen it done with Willywonka's ele-hit totem build where he freezelocked and triple-shock stacked her instantly.