GGG says they are against botting, but...

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Real_Wolf wrote:

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Herpy_Derpleson wrote:

So I did understand you correctly.
That's relevant how? That is an entirely different issue to what's happening here.

I can enable godmode in Doom. Discuss.

Point is that we learnt from previous games, D2, WC2 etc, that we shouldn't store the map information client side.

Follow on games D3, SC2, LoL, etc all learnt from this and did not do so.

That is my point, this is common knowledge, why it was designed differently I do not know

One time map data, and constantly updating player/unit locations are not the same thing at all.

I don't even what you're trying to say?

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Herpy_Derpleson wrote:

One time map data, and constantly updating player/unit locations are not the same thing at all.

I don't even what you're trying to say?

Map data not being instantly available (able to see whole thing) has existed before.

In this instance I reference two different types of games, MOBA's/RTS and ARPG. The ARPG example is relevant easily, D2->D3 not client side map. The MOBA/RTS are examples of similar situations in a different genre, where the same change was made, client->server storage

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Real_Wolf wrote:

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Herpy_Derpleson wrote:

So I did understand you correctly.
That's relevant how? That is an entirely different issue to what's happening here.

I can enable godmode in Doom. Discuss.

Point is that we learnt from previous games, D2, WC2 etc, that we shouldn't store the map information client side.

Follow on games D3, SC2, LoL, etc all learnt from this and did not do so.

That is my point, this is common knowledge, why it was designed differently I do not know

I'm not sure what sc2 your playing, but there are map hacks, and they are used by a lot of people in it. They have evolved since brood war too, its disgusting. From a few streams I saw of players streaming themselves using these cheats, the map hack part isn't even the dangerous part, they have a display just like watching a replay showing w/e information they want. Being able to see the exact build, drops before they even leave your opponents base, and exact unit comp is just insane. It's one reason why I no longer play.

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Drystion wrote:

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Real_Wolf wrote:

"

Herpy_Derpleson wrote:

So I did understand you correctly.
That's relevant how? That is an entirely different issue to what's happening here.

I can enable godmode in Doom. Discuss.

Point is that we learnt from previous games, D2, WC2 etc, that we shouldn't store the map information client side.

Follow on games D3, SC2, LoL, etc all learnt from this and did not do so.

That is my point, this is common knowledge, why it was designed differently I do not know

I'm not sure what sc2 your playing, but there are map hacks, and they are used by a lot of people in it. They have evolved since brood war too, its disgusting. From a few streams I saw of players streaming themselves using these cheats, the map hack part isn't even the dangerous part, they have a display just like watching a replay showing w/e information they want. Being able to see the exact build, drops before they even leave your opponents base, and exact unit comp is just insane. It's one reason why I no longer play.

Ah, I thought SC2 had done it better, my bad. Going to remove that from the list, but the rest of the argument is soudn.

Anyway, thep oint is, Chris said they are looking into improving it, thread is dead, this is just idle chit chat now

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Anyway, thep oint is, Chris said they are looking into improving it, thread is dead, this is just idle chit chat now

I still am curious why they did the Level 25 Rule prior to implementing on-demand map data. There's really no excuse for ever releasing the map distribution the way they did. Yeah, okay, it's getting fixed, Chris himself, best possible result I could possibly expect...

But I'm sorry, until I actually see it in patch notes, I'm not going to get a warm and fuzzy on this one. Just being honest.

On the whole SC2 thing, apparently it's all the rage these days to have each RTS client run the entire simulation client-side instead of server-side to save on bandwidth. Which doesn't make sense to me; how's it supposed to be an eSport if your opponent's client is telegraphing his actual unit commands to you? Only when KeSPA refs are literally looking over the shoulders of all players involved, apparently.

And then D3 parcels at the data at what seem to be the right times (I haven't noticed anything overly hackable), but it uses an entirely TCP-handshake architecture which, while eliminating desync, does lead to some sluggish lag responses that are just downright unnatural in multiplayer, where the game runs at the speed of the slowest player involved.

And no ARPG I'm aware of is using UDP, which is just criminal (unlike the author of the linked article, I think TCP hybridization isn't bad, actually virtually required).

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Chris wrote:

The new system will do the same with tiles at the cost of slightly more bandwidth usage.

Erm... please be careful with that. Some people have very heavy bandwidth caps.

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Zedda wrote:

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Chris wrote:

The new system will do the same with tiles at the cost of slightly more bandwidth usage.

Erm... please be careful with that. Some people have very heavy bandwidth caps.

Gaming is a hobby.
Like all hobbies, it has expenses.
A suitable connection is one of those expenses.

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Xendran wrote:

Gaming is a hobby.
Like all hobbies, it has expenses.
A suitable connection is one of those expenses.

In some countries that luxury cannot be purchased at any expense.

Bandwidth issues are a concern. Desync issues are a concern. Earlier someone said "shouldn't feeding the map to the client piecemeal be easy?" If we assume a stable connection with good bandwidth, absolutely easy. But these are not valid assumptions, and the techniques used to smooth over the rough patches are the real head-scratchers.

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Xendran wrote:

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Zedda wrote:

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Chris wrote:

The new system will do the same with tiles at the cost of slightly more bandwidth usage.

Erm... please be careful with that. Some people have very heavy bandwidth caps.

Gaming is a hobby.
Like all hobbies, it has expenses.
A suitable connection is one of those expenses.

how arrogant!!!!

Oh yeah, GGG could come pay my internet bill, seriously, this is pay2win, I still have to pay every month to play! Outrageous