Ranger Start Tree feedback

My ranger is melee, and I sometimes turn to range, kinda hybrid like.
an my main range skill is .... ice shot.
and it works.
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What idea about another support than fork/chain ? I keep waiting for it.

And one last thing, if you can't see how good 15% chance to avoid status ailment is ..... well it just speaks for itself.

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Fruz wrote:

there are 7 different node types for melee weapons ( not counting daggers, claws and staves here ), and only 2 for bows ( not counting accuracy/IAS for both cases ).
I find it normal to allow people to choose what they wanna do, changing this would be giving less choices, or would need to remove specialized nodes to give more general but less powerful melee nodes ....
There are axes, maces or even DW nodes in the witch/templar area, that doesn't make their trees useless.

The only melee cluster I disapprove of is the Wrecking Ball cluster that relates to 2handed weapons. I'd rather see that cluster moved to the border of the Ranger/Duelist tree than IN the Ranger tree. Other melee passives should be rerouted along the borders as well. Also, how many players use the Arm Wrestling and Swagger notables on the outer ring of the Ranger tree? I don't think most players do, which is evidence of their bad placement in relation to the rest of the tree. If you got rid of them, nobody would miss them either. (Also the Crit multiplier cluster with Heartseeker should be replaced with Crit chance nodes, then the HeartSeeker notable should be like Assassination granting 40% crit and 20% crit multiplier.)

Btw, the axe and mace cluster are not what I would consider particular to Witch tree itself as it is on the border of the two trees. Templars can specialize in Str weapons, so it's not a surprise seeing that there. However, I'd agree with the fact that they're oddly placed considering that part of the tree is Int-laden. And dual-wielding passives make perfect sense if you want to dual-wield wands and scepters.

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Fruz wrote:

The problem is not much the tree, the problem is how evasion and accuracy work, evasion just doesn't fit well in this game it seems.

So if you fixed Dex and evasion, people would start using the Ranger passives more? I'm highly skeptical of that. You say physical passives are fine, yet the majority of all bow users still go elemental and stack life (escape as fast as possible from Ranger or start from Duelist/Marauder) or CI/GR physical combo from the Shadow area. Yes, I know the arguments about how elemental is better even with the Catalyze cluster being nerfed (yet again). I believe that if the Ranger tree was improved to the point that the amount of good physical bow notables outweighed the journey across to the Templar tree, then the Ranger tree is worth taking. Currently, it is not unless you want to go phys/crit.

But yes, the underlying the mechanics of dexterity (evasion and accuracy) do need a rework mechanics-wise. I don't disagree with that at all. I just don't that changing dex/evasion/acc by itself would solve the issues plaguing the Ranger tree.

Most of what I've wanted to say has been covered. As it stands the Ranger's initial path is very convoluted relative to other classes and provides very little incentives for others to enter her tree (no innuendo).

Compared to classes like the Duelist and Marauder (all of which have attractive entry points), you'll notice that there's no easy way into her tree.





Look at the Ranger. Let's compare her to her companion, the Duelist. Primary example is Shield Wall. Why is it that the Duelist gets Testudo, an identical skill but with 2% more Block Chance? Compare the Duelist's Acceleration to Finesse - a tradeoff of 10 DEX for a whopping 8% IAS (which is worth at least 2 standard IAS nodes). To the north, we have Perfect Aim, giving 15% ProjD. and 30 DEX - Fury Bolts gives 12% (3% less) Projectile Damage and 20 STR (which benefits Rangers taking Iron Grip).

That's just part of the issue. Most other trees have easy (and efficient) ways IN/OUT of their tree where they pick up generally useful nodes. Some such as the Shadow enter/exit with a Notable. Others like the Marauder enter/exit next to TWO Notables. This is not the case for the Ranger - half her notables are in weird spots in her area, often forcing players to pick up 2 or more nodes to get to them making it extremely inefficient and unattractive.

I will say that she shares a very good area down south with the Duelist with easy access to the highway, her only saving grace. That and her entire east highway needs to be reworked. For what they do, it doesn't justify the point cost to get there. I'll elaborate more on this in a moment.

-WIP-

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Compared to classes like the Duelist and Marauder (all of which have attractive entry points), you'll notice that there's no easy way into her tree.

no that there is anything worth aiming for in ranger tree:/

sadly the best archer i've created (on other account) is a marauder with iron grip and resolute technique. I needed dex only to meet equip requirements. other than that this is a completely wasted stat. sadly - it is one of three main stats..

I'm challenging GGG for the following challenge:

Create HC viable ranger build with comparable effectivity like current elem ranger builds.

Now the limitation: you are not allowed to step out of ranger area by taking more than 3 nodes other than dex nodes (on path ways) - that's restricting you to ranger area.

Now if you can create such viable build - the ranger tree is ok.
If you can't create such build - ranger tree is not ok.

Every class should be viable by their own tree resources.
You can also try for other classes.

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Islidox wrote:

The only melee cluster I disapprove of is the Wrecking Ball cluster that relates to 2handed weapons. I'd rather see that cluster moved to the border of the Ranger/Duelist tree than IN the Ranger tree. Other melee passives should be rerouted along the borders as well. Also, how many players use the Arm Wrestling and Swagger notables on the outer ring of the Ranger tree? I don't think most players do, which is evidence of their bad placement in relation to the rest of the tree.

I don't think 2H weapon style fits the ranger either actually, ranger seems to be somewhat specialized in DW for melee ( or 1H + shield ), 2H doesn't fit to the image of a ranger that I have.

There are some obvious nodes that noone takes ( = blade barrier for example ), but I feel that there are many of those accross the whole tree, not only in the ranger area ( well not in the duelist area anymore since the rework, it is true that this one is better than ours since then, but it received a really huge buff thought ).

Arm wrestling and swagger are passive I have never seen taken, as many other in the tree, I feel like this is a much deeper problem than the passive skill tree, because people can't afford to go full dps - melee unless they spawn near CI and ES nodes and go for a full crit build mostly. Back when I was DW, I couldn't afford to take swagger, but if I had a little bit more point, I would have taken it I think. But Dervish is a tuge huge passive not to be taken as a DW ranger for example.
But a facelift of this area would improve the ranger, no doubt.

My point is, there should be ( to me ) more scaling and lower values to deal dmg, so that people need to take passive from the tree to actually deal some dmg, and on the other hand, have something like more basic life, or something that allows melee ( and most of the range ) not to focus on survability mostly ( why do LA builds have a big amount of node life and go all the way to static blows ? because they don't need much more to have a big dps, and the game is made so that stacking health is .... just more important.

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Btw, the axe and mace cluster are not what I would consider particular to Witch tree itself. Templars can specialize in Str weapons, so it's not a surprise seeing that there. However, I'd agree with the fact that they're oddly placed considering that part of the tree is Int-laden. And dual-wielding passives make perfect sense if you want to dual-wield wands and scepters.

hmm ... this is actually true ^^, unusual bit it is nice to give this possiblity to people.
The thing is, the tree gives some possibility to be weapon specialized in the mage area ....
Why don't we have even a tiny possibility to have magical/elemental build in our tree then ? This is a design flaw to me and I would like to see such a thing ( we have those tiny 3*10% elemental dmg nodes and the ice bite ... but the ice which represents cold dmg => dext, is actually in the duelist tree ! but well the lightning equiv is in the shadow tree so ... weird ).

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So if you fixed Dex and evasion, people would start using the Ranger passives more? I'm highly skeptical of that. You say physical passives are fine, yet the majority of all bow users still go elemental and stack life (escape as fast as possible from Ranger or start from Duelist/Marauder) or CI/GR physical combo from the Shadow area.

you know that, physical damage needs scaling because of the way armor works ... elemental ... just doesn't.


Honestly, I don't see any fix that would solve the evasion/accuracy problem and would make the ranger tree more popular, some part of the ranger tree need a rework, but this is a consequence of this underlying problem.
Now, the design of the game makes it kinda unfixable, however, a patchwork like reworking the ranger area would definitely improve our rangers.
Gives ranger the possibility to be elemental rangers, staying in our tree for example, or that life problem I mentionned ( but this would need a much deeper game's design rework I guess ).

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no that there is anything worth aiming for in ranger tree:/

sadly the best archer i've created (on other account) is a marauder with iron grip and resolute technique. I needed dex only to meet equip requirements. other than that this is a completely wasted stat. sadly - it is one of three main stats..

There is nothing for elemental users in the ranger tree ( or almost ), I feel like GGG wanted rangers to be physical lol, what a failure on this part.


The most attractive physical nodes are in our part of the tree, but for elemental ......
There are physical build that work don't get me wrong, it isn't just as easy as elemental builds are.

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Compared to classes like the Duelist and Marauder (all of which have attractive entry points), you'll notice that there's no easy way into her tree.

the part between ranger and shadow is the weirdest of the tree imho.



EDIT : oh my, what have I written ?! ^^"
Sorry for the length of the post, there are some ideas I have some troubles to express, because of course, I have no real finite fix for some problems, it would take much more time to design =).

Yay clean the ranger tree up.

1. Get rid of those crappy 6%/2% nodes
2. Clear paths for elemental bowmen / physical bowmen / melee.
3. Fix evasion and make it not suck so bad, even with full acrobatics if you run without armour in hardcore its suicide.
4. Place +2 mana gain on hit keystone in ranger area completely opposite the +2 life gain on hit on marauder side. Reduce blood magic being required for LA spam.

5. Give other classes a reason to move into the ranger tree.

Like put something totally awesome mid way between the ranger and shadow like an immunity to reflected damage keystone.
So people can actually play high crit physical ranger without dying to reflect.

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Filousov wrote:

I'm challenging GGG for the following challenge:

Create HC viable ranger build with comparable effectivity like current elem ranger builds.

Now the limitation: you are not allowed to step out of ranger area by taking more than 3 nodes other than dex nodes (on path ways) - that's restricting you to ranger area.

Now if you can create such viable build - the ranger tree is ok.
If you can't create such build - ranger tree is not ok.

Every class should be viable by their own tree resources.
You can also try for other classes.

+1 for this!



+1, think very resonable feedback

And IMHO would be great if some Reduced Mana reservation and Mana cost will come near Ranger.
+ Strenght need to be little closer.
And i still think some buffs for Decoy Totem and Ice Arrow would make them usefull and more popular in game. Right now they are no good at all ( )

BTW with big nerf for life, now much harder to play with pure EVA + some ES or some ARM, bcs if 1 hit even magic mob your 90% life gone or dead.

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1. Get rid of those crappy 6%/2% nodes

not happening
they just reworked the duelist tree and buffed physical nodes.
Do you know what some of the new axes nodes are ? 6%physical dmg + 2%attack speed.
This is the standart for basic nodes, I don't think they will change it more.
For a physical path, this is okay.
For an elemental one, this isn't thought, but it's not the node itself that is wrong :(.

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4. Place +2 mana gain on hit keystone in ranger area completely opposite the +2 life gain on hit on marauder side. Reduce blood magic being required for LA spam.

THIS
this is a good idea and shouldn't be too hard to do.

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