Ranger Start Tree feedback

Will we get any GGG feedback on our feedback?

BTW to sum it up (in order of importance):

Dexterity bonus has no real-game value
Evasion == Armor, Evasion alone is a broken concept
Ranger starting area has ZERO keystones/notables that would make anyone go there, it is a barren desert
Iron Reflexes is a broken keystone that destroys 1/3 of defense options
Currently the best way to play Ranger (and be successful) is to play Marauder and get Iron Grip
Lightning Arrow eclipses all other 'easy and accessible' builds. Exploding Arrow build is very powerful but it requires at least mid-level game understanding. LA+Chain requires ZERO skill.

I read the pages of replies before this and have a lot of hope that something can be done. I'm a ranger at heart, but just kept going witch because it's a lot easier.

In my opinion, the key is in Dex, Evasion and Accuracy. Adding more life nodes may bridge some gap between other builds, but it doesn't make a case for why ranger.

Keeping with a bow build, I would say the following:

1. Evasion: The key as noted before is that reducing the probability of getting hit doesn't matter if you get one shot conditional upon getting hit. If evasion is primarily the odds of not getting hit, it should have a secondary roll to save on avoiding a crit after you have been hit, avoiding a elemental reflection conditional on getting hit, etc. As long as evasion is 100% on probability of getting hit, and not on severity, then you just convert to armor via node.

2. Dexterity: If it's just the odds of hitting, then you go resolute technique to avoid evade and max crit chance or similar strategy. There should be some feedback loop with Evasion for this to build into defense, or offense crit chance more then current to make Dexterity builds more compelling.

3. Decoys/Skills: Please no pets, though this is admittedly part of a ranger mental build. One could accomplish the greater survivability for a Ranger merely by having a set of skills similar to decoy totems, available much sooner please, that have increasing odds of luring mobs to a different target location or random location. This helps with crowd conrol. If one wanted more single target suvivability, a similar spell could create a temporary active bond with nature such that a % of damage is redirected to the land around the ranger, and provides the equivalent of *life* nodes, but in a ranger designed way that doesn't make them just another meatshield. The value of this as an active vs. passive is that it wouldn't chew a bunch of mana, though one could control that with the cost itself.

If we are talking about skills:

Support, Bow (not projectile! no more bonuses for freeze pulse..)

Root

Supported skills have a chance to root an enemy based on phys damage (similar to stun, but for considerably longer).

Making it based on phys dmg will promote other skills than LA :/


When I play my 'stubborn ranger - evasion only etc' what kills me are hordes of fast trash mobs. Just because no matter how fast I am some of them WILL get into melee. After that - game over

"

sidtherat wrote:

If we are talking about skills:

Support, Bow (not projectile! no more bonuses for freeze pulse..)

Root

Supported skills have a chance to root an enemy based on phys damage (similar to stun, but for considerably longer).

Making it based on phys dmg will promote other skills than LA :/

Your desire to balance around LA is nice and all, but making ranged characters that can facetank everything -- without even the need to be in their face -- is probably not good for the health of the game.

Sorry, I forgot one.

I would really like to see a viable path for a ranger bow physical damage only. This should be on DOT bleeds, etc.

I would really like seeing a viable alternative to LA or similar where the ranger is essentially a mage via bow.

"

I would really like seeing a viable alternative to LA or similar where the ranger is essentially a mage via bow.

RoA is much better than LA, and it can be elemental or physical.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Will we get any GGG feedback on our feedback?

BTW to sum it up (in order of importance):

Dexterity bonus has no real-game value
Evasion == Armor, Evasion alone is a broken concept
Ranger starting area has ZERO keystones/notables that would make anyone go there, it is a barren desert
Iron Reflexes is a broken keystone that destroys 1/3 of defense options
Currently the best way to play Ranger (and be successful) is to play Marauder and get Iron Grip
Lightning Arrow eclipses all other 'easy and accessible' builds. Exploding Arrow build is very powerful but it requires at least mid-level game understanding. LA+Chain requires ZERO skill.

I think this guy make a good changes/requests. And more:

=> !✓ ☛ Need some changes for other skill gems like ice shot. Bcs i never see anyone use as main skill gem. It's most useless and not viable gem for ranger or bow user. Burn/Expl/Split/RoA/.... Arrow a lot better than ice shot. Idea to make more nodes near Ranger start tree with somethink for chill durations, chance to freeze or similar and add ONLY WITH BOW(to not buff other weapon/spell users), so atleast Ice arrow start to be usefull and fine for this game.
Give me BEST and Most DMG build with Ice Arrow if im not right... no? That's why and not only need to UPD and ADD nodes for ice/freeze/chill or somethink (only with bow).

=> !✓ ☛ And need some Life/ES nodes bcs near nothink good, that's why bow less usefull if start to play as Ranger class. Very low defence node and need to lvl up a lot to find some defence node and survives.

=> !✓ ☛ GGG PLEASE MAKE A BUFFS FOR DECOY TOTEM, PLEASE! On every and all maps Decoy died at 0,5-1,5 sec WITH MAX QUALITY AND MAX TOTEM ELE RESISTENCE! MAKE BUFFS PLEASE! PLEASE, I WISH FOR THIS FOR LONG! And Need BUFF for MINION TOTEM ELE RESISTENCE, bcs maybe for minions its Over Powered and INSANE, but for Totems its useless (i mean very low and not help at all). Quality for Deciy Totem give nothink that can looks like HP (Life). Very low % Life with Quality... Please, for all and everyone, Make usefull buffs for Decoy Totem! Right now Spell Totem with Summon Skele + Life summons = MUCH MUCH A LOT BETTER AND USEFULL "DECOY TOTEM", Then Decoy Totem himself.

=> !✓ ☛ Status ailment nodes Not useful at all. Only Lost free nodes. Need rework or buff.

=> !✓ ☛ Add some node as Chain or similar, vey usefull and needed for ranger. Something new as Chain or Fork (but Chain more fun). Rly need to Add.

=> !✓ ☛ Move away Avoid Stun and Stun Recovery nodes out to completely optional clusters. Very low and bad nodes... rly. I never see builds with this nodes. Need buff or removes. Nobody ever takes the Avoid Stun over Evasion or Stun Recovery over Life, no one ever.

=> !✓ ☛ Life regen node. Need to add life regen node for survives. Maybe a new notable with life and regen? + Mana, mana problem for rangers very very main. Need to make closer or add new nodes with Big nodes mana and regen.

=> !✓ ☛ Ele DMG and again one more time ADD nodes for ice/freeze/chilling on hit only for bows. Rly need so please start to look on ice shot...

=> !✓ ☛ Eva and Life nodes... they are very far away for rangers... 100% true. Need add or buff near rangers eva + life nodes.

=> !✓ ☛ Atack Speed with Bow very low... very. + Accuracy Node not give much (even big nodes not worth it) + Movement Speed with +3 and so on... rly? only +3?

=> !✓ ☛ Chance to Freeze for only Bow (rly needed)

=> !✓ ☛ Ignore all Movement Penalties ONLY near Shadow, need to make near Ranger or somethink + Strenght node very far away from Ranger + very low life node and no Regen.
Again on more time: Freeze or Chilling + Accuracy need to be added a lot more buffed. + Evation needed to be little changed bcs most players take for later converts to armour... that's not doos at all. + more IAS node + Some nodes like INNER FORCE near Ranger would be great! ❀‿❀

After having played a few Ranger characters and then trying out both a Duelist and most recently a Shadow to see how the handle ranged combat, I feel I have to chime into this thread. The Ranger IMHO is so much worse than either of them with bows that it has left me scratching my head as to what the Ranger is supposed to be. Maybe a little harsh, but let me take a few moments and some points to formulate my thoughts together to show you why I think as such. First, let me start off with the Duelist and Shadows I have played/been playing and outline my experiences with them. I'll go with Duelist first.


Duelist - The Duelist starting area is just so much better than the Ranger, especially if you're going to want to play as an elemental bow type. The only issue you might have early on is that you can't reach life nodes incredibly quickly, but at least you're only in Normal Mode for that so it's manageable with some extra life on gear and since you're playing at ranged you can avoid damage more easily. Even then you don't have to spend much to make it to some nice health clusters and all the while you're gobbling up tasty attack speed and bow damage nodes that are so easy to pick up and provide plenty of bang for the buck. That and you can nab an easy mana cluster and the Leather and Steel nodes to get rid of movement speed penalties and get some nice percentage boosts to Evasion OR Armor...extra flexibility there.

At that point you can start making your way over to the Templar tree and along the highway you have plenty of nice nodes to get at and of course plenty of health and even hefty life regen nodes, which come in tremendous handy since most going this route will pick up the Blood Magic Keystone. Resolute Technique is there if you're not using a Lioneye's Glare bow, you get access to even more health in the Marauder area, extra resist nodes, and then you're right near Inner Force and Static Blows, which also give your highway Intellect nodes to pick up and help out with your aura requirements, and then of course let's not forget Iron Grip should you be wielding Lioneye's Glare. The only thing you'd venture into the Ranger area for are a few health nodes and Iron Reflexes, and then you're done.

All-in-all the Duelist is just much better than the Ranger in this case due to better laid out nodes, paths to take them, and closer starting to health-heavy trees that also have everything an elemental bow Duelist could ever want. And again...THAT HEALTH AND LIFE REGEN!


Shadow - Again, the Shadow starting area is just so much better organized for ranged bow combat compared to the Ranger. Good stats for the points you spend, VERY NICE early life node access, a tasty attack speed node, a bow cluster that has very solid passives to pick up, and not a far distance from things like the Piercing Shots and King of the Hill notables. Those also have nice passives to pick up on your way to them and...well...yeah. Even better if you try and play a Frenzy/Split Arrow style like I am because you can easily pick up the nearest two Frenzy charge nodes, forget the third one, and just grab the Kraityn FC quest reward for a total of 6 and you'll be more than fast enough to shoot away.

Not only that, but the Shadow has access to A LOT of crit nodes and can actually make good use of physical damage with bows to be quite deadly and output a lot of hurt much better than the Ranger can. And there is one BIG reason for that...Shadow's easier time of getting Eldritch Battery. Currently on my Shadow (which is only level 74) I am running SEVEN auras: Haste, Hatred, Determination, Grace, Anger, Wrath, and Discipline, and I can still add in more damage and survivability with another 11 points I haven't gotten yet since I am going to 'finish' the build at 85, which seems to be a reasonable level. Regardless, Shadow has a much easier time of getting what is needed to get the job done, and with Determination and able to reach Iron Reflexes I am sporting around (I think) 7,000+ armor, and around 8,500 with added evasion when my 6 Frenzy Charges are up.


So, with all of that said it should be pretty obvious that my conclusion is that the Ranger doesn't do what these two other classes flanking her tree are able to do, and they in fact do BETTER at bows than her. I know others have been posting suggestions, so I am going to post a few of mine as to general things that need to be taken care of to make the Ranger starting tree a much better zone for those who want to go ranged. I will not touch melee since I don't play a melee style Ranger so I leave that to others to work with...all ranged for me in this.


1. Consolidate the Accuracy/Movement Speed/Attack Speed clusters - These three clusters are directly right of the Master Fletcher circle and are really bad in both location and bang-for-buck-value. Most people either take the two Strength node path to move to the Duelist tree early, or go right a bit to grab health and then down for IR, the E-Damage nodes, and the Thick Skin health passive. Going Duelist means much better IAS nodes and if you want MS, then hello Celerity right near IR and for ONE POINT you get 8% MS compared to 9% for THREE NODES. I don't think I have to say how terrible that is and no one in their right mind would waste that many points especially if they're going IR, which many do. I know the Accuracy Rating nodes are general ones designed to help with melee, but even then they are such a waste and should at least give something else to go along with them and not just more Dexterity.

Combining these nodes into a nice cluster could be an idea, and also moving Master Fletcher to where they are now would be a nice help, too. Again, Duelists already get plenty of good ranged nodes and Rangers should have easier access to them, especially since the Ranger tree is primarily geared towards physical bow damage. That and if a Duelist wanted to go physical instead of elemental then they're going to travel that way anyway, so not a huge deal. But with that said, please make those current clusters something that people would want to spend a few more points on going through them instead of less to get around them because they are terrible.

2. Mana and Mana Reduction - This has been discussed but I want to bring it up again. Duelists and Marauders get access to mana clusters around areas they would normally travel to and also have access to MANY mana reduction nodes, too. There's also the fact that they (Templar as well) have access to almost all, if not all of the reduced mana reserve for auras, so they have plenty of ways to stave off mana problems. That or they could go Blood Magic if worst comes to worst. Shadows have little issue with this as well because of easy access and Eldritch Battery and can even gain great benefit from that far more easily than others. Does the Ranger have anything to boast about for any of this? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Let's not kid ourselves here...Rangers have mana issues early on, mid-game, and late-game, and it's no surprise many decide to go the BM route. Those who do stick with mana don't get much and end up leeching on the Duelist tree to the point that again...shoulda went Duelist from the start. Rangers NEED to have better mana nodes, especially early on and maybe more north near places like the Lethality cluster, or up near Piercing Shots even. That and what is up with the ONE...ONE Reduced Mana node near IR? I'm sorry to be a bit harsh here, but that is a JOKE. I know others can build skill link chains that are mana hogs, but at least they have ways of dealing with them while Rangers do not. Rangers SHOULD have a few more Reduced Mana nodes, and maybe even a small cluster of Reduced Mana Reserved so they can get a little help in that department.

3. Fix the Greater Impact/Perfect Aim and the 'Draw' Major Clusters - These two are a mess...plain and simple. The notables in GI/PA are ok, but I think the added Dexterity really is a waste and should be something either like IAS or maybe a little extra Strength or Intellect so Rangers have a slightly easier time meeting requirements for Int/Str gems. The 12% damage nodes are fine, but the 6%/2% ones...come on...either bump them up a bit or maybe add some other nodes in there like maybe some health nodes or even MANA REDUCTION. The same goes for the 'Draw' passive cluster, specifically the long line to get to Heavy Draw. There are a total of six passives including HD when in similar clusters in other trees there are only a total of 4-5. This one really needs to be fixed and perhaps even connecting to the Deadly Draw line to make it look better.

4. Life Nodes Need Fixing - As someone else pointed out earlier, while the Ranger tree has a fair amount of life nodes, they are CRAPPY compared to other tree layouts. The only two notable health things are Gymnastics and Thick Skin while the rest are the crummy 6% nodes. Duelists - even BOW Duelists if they want to sacrifice ONE point for a melee notable - have access to 3.3% life regen as well as two 10% life nodes near their immediate starting area and then can quickly move over to nab Thick Skin. Plus...again...closer to the Marauder tree and the big 'Wheel of Life' near Iron Grip/Vaal Pact. Shadows have far, FAR better starting life nodes, get more notable health nodes, and can work their way down to the Ranger tree to pick up the nodes there if going the physical damage bow route.

Rangers need to have better grouping and stronger variety for their health...quality NOT quantity in this case. They are designed to be the premier evasion/dodgy class but even those classes need a nice life pool to survive hits when those defenses fail and right now Rangers don't have either to be honest. That and a little health regen would certainly be nice without having to go out to East Bumble**** to get even 2.0% life regen. Some flat health nodes can also work wonders, but that might be asking for too much in this bit of paragraph suggesting, though I guess not all of them would have to be implemented. Just some ideas to allow the Ranger a little more health and survivability in the defense department.


I have a few more things I'd like to touch on, but it's already late and I need sleep here on the east coast. The main point I want to get across is that the Ranger tree needs fixing and it needs to have a more clear direction in where it wants to go. That and to clean it up and consolidate some areas while maybe expanding others. In playing both the Duelist and the Shadow I found that both of those classes could spend quite a few points in their own trees and maybe venture just a little to either adjacent area and still come out well. With the Ranger, it's like you HAVE to get out of her tree ASAP to get where you want to go and then you end up asking yourself, "Why didn't I just pick another class that was closer to where I wanted to start with?" Really, the only big advantage the Ranger has is that she has zero problems with any pure Dex-based weapon/gems, but falls short in many other things including ranged, which she should be the defacto-go-to class for ease and flexibility.

"

Fantoster wrote:

[...]

What a quite terrible post, you are wrong on many things, plus it's not always quite easy to read you.

a) Ice shot is not broken at all, it is not because you don't see parties with ice shot users that it sucks, using it with pierce + LMP + WED gives good results.
Of course it has less dps than RoA/LA, but do those 2 skills have innate kitting ? And btw, you didn't even mention the most basic of all skill : burning arrow. Do you see people using it ? I bet no. Is it broken and useless ? no it isn't !
EDIT : read to quick, you did pention it my bad there.
The only improvement that I could see good for Ice shot would be to increase the dmg on impact on the first monster it touches.

b) spell totem + minion life + summon skeleton > decoy totem ? Obviously, you are comparing 1 gem to 3 gems linked together .... ( and you forgot faster casting too :> )

c) Status ailment nodes not useful ? What The Heck ? +15% chance to avoid status ailment ? this node is almost godlike, definitely one the best I have taken on the tree, and I would love being able to take more "20% chance to avoid getting chilled" if I could.

d) I don't quite see what more than chain and fork we could have ... ideas would be welcome.

e) We don't need chance to freeze for bows, we already have 2 gems for freeze/chill, and you can go for a crit spec if you want more, having chance to freeze/chill nodes would not only work with ice shot but with anything as tree != gem. Terrible idea.

f) the accuracy nodes are definitely worth, accuracy itself is broken, so this is another point. And if you don't like your attack speed .... chance your bow and/or your percs, I am really satisfied with my attack speed, plus we are the one having the easy placement for frenzy charges. Duelist are more fit to direct fighting, them having more attack speed sounds quite normal to me.

"

Tanakeah wrote:

[...]

This is true that the ranger is basically not fit from his tree to go for an elemental build, it looks like GGG didn't really think about that possibility at the very beginning, and post duelist tree rework, he now has advantages for this.
But for a physical build, the ranger has definitely many more good nodes for this.

I believe that the nodes between shadow and ranger are not well designed, some rework there would be nice, this is true, the shadow really has access to really easy bow nodes.

Agree on the mana nodes, some stronger "reduced mana cost of skills" with easy access would be nice.

The "Fix the Greater Impact/Perfect Aim and the 'Draw' Major Clusters" are fine, they are just not fit for elemental rangers, for physical rangers, it is just fine. Having another way for elemental ranger would be something I would like to see there.

I feel like life regen completely fits what a ranger should be able to do = rest anywhere. Need some, or need a way to get some health back.

[Removed]
=> !✓ ☛ GGG PLEASE MAKE A BUFFS FOR DECOY TOTEM, PLEASE! On every and all maps Decoy died at 0,5-1,5 sec WITH MAX QUALITY AND MAX TOTEM ELE RESISTENCE! MAKE BUFFS PLEASE! PLEASE, I WISH FOR THIS FOR LONG! And Need BUFF for MINION TOTEM ELE RESISTENCE, bcs maybe for minions its Over Powered and INSANE, but for Totems its useless (i mean very low and not help at all). Quality for Deciy Totem give nothink that can looks like HP (Life). Very low % Life with Quality... Please, for all and everyone, Make usefull buffs for Decoy Totem! Right now Spell Totem with Summon Skele + Life summons = MUCH MUCH A LOT BETTER AND USEFULL "DECOY TOTEM", Then Decoy Totem himself.

=> !✓ ☛ Status ailment nodes Not useful at all. Only Lost free nodes. Need rework or buff.

=> !✓ ☛ Add some node as Chain or similar, vey usefull and needed for ranger. Something new as Chain or Fork (but Chain more fun). Rly need to Add.

=> !✓ ☛ Move away Avoid Stun and Stun Recovery nodes out to completely optional clusters. Very low and bad nodes... rly. I never see builds with this nodes. Need buff or removes. Nobody ever takes the Avoid Stun over Evasion or Stun Recovery over Life, no one ever.

=> !✓ ☛ Life regen node. Need to add life regen node for survives. Maybe a new notable with life and regen? + Mana, mana problem for rangers very very main. Need to make closer or add new nodes with Big nodes mana and regen.

=> !✓ ☛ Ele DMG and again one more time ADD nodes for ice/freeze/chilling on hit only for bows. Rly need so please start to look on ice shot...

=> !✓ ☛ Eva and Life nodes... they are very far away for rangers... 100% true. Need add or buff near rangers eva + life nodes.

=> !✓ ☛ Atack Speed with Bow very low... very. + Accuracy Node not give much (even big nodes not worth it) + Movement Speed with +3 and so on... rly? only +3?

=> !✓ ☛ Chance to Freeze for only Bow (rly needed)

=> !✓ ☛ Ignore all Movement Penalties ONLY near Shadow, need to make near Ranger or somethink + Strenght node very far away from Ranger + very low life node and no Regen.
Again on more time: Freeze or Chilling + Accuracy need to be added a lot more buffed. + Evation needed to be little changed bcs most players take for later converts to armour... that's not doos at all. + more IAS node + Some nodes like INNER FORCE near Ranger would be great!