Keyboard Skills: Key-binding as an alt option to current control format?
" It's not hard to develop a clause where if one skill key is pressed while another is still held down [with a target locked], that it should use the new skill but keep the original target locked. I could see diablo 2 not having fixed that cause it's such an old game to which they probably never even knew about the problem for a long time. In fact who's to say that they even wanted people to use multiple abilities while having a target locked? doesn't it make sense that if you lock a target, you should only be able to use 1 skill? "Why implement target locking in the first place? it just detracts from the skill necessary to kill monsters or players, and gives an extreme advantage to ranged characters with very fast projectiles, or instant-effect spells (cold snap, temporal chains) like you said, target locking is like auto aim, so why even let people do it at all even if standing still? Having a system where you can target lock at all (especially change skills while target locking) would be a big problem if keyboard movement (i.e. WASD) was ever implemented, another thing I am against (and you better be too, if you're FOR target locking and AGAINST auto aim) "Terribly ignorant statement. Guild Wars and MOBAs are some of the best competitive games ever made, and they make extensive use of cooldowns. I only played one good [non-FPS] PvP game that didn't use much cooldowns, which was Westwood Studio's Nox. That said, one class's (warrior) skills were 100% regulated by cooldown (no energy/fury/etc.), and weapon attacks had a unique mechanic of not being able to spam all the time (like an overheat system in Mechwarrior), and all skills had cast times which could not be lowered at all, and were sometimes quite large. Diablo wasn't even a good PvP game, at least in a fair/competitive sense, which is the best way to have fun in my opinion. Diablo was all about ganking, or fighting a matchup you'd win and chickening matches you couldn't win, or having to have great gear to be competitive. Fresh cakes for all occasions. Delivery in 30 eons or less Call 1-800-DOMINUS Remember - 'Dominus Delivers' Last edited by Xapti#6455 on Oct 9, 2011, 8:26:29 PM
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" The target locking allows for easier and faster combos which makes it a faster paced game and fast paced games are fun (that's one of the reasons first person shooters sell so well fast paced gaming) "Starting with WASD movement has no place in a game like this but anyways I think the locking adds more of a strategy to melee characters where you would shield charge and then immediately start using other skills (perhaps a skill that has some sort of build up damage like umm viper strike then use a skill that simply has a lot of damage) Granted it does favor some skills more then others but from what I've seen the skills it favors are fairly low damage skills Btw there is no skill necessary to kill monsters and it would become part of the skills needed to kill players "First it's kinda funny that you bring up MOBA games and quote me saying I hate dota games but anyways Guild wars is boring as hell it's a very slow paced game which is what cool downs do they slow down the pace of a game it's not a fun mechanic and balanced can be achieved with more a little more effort (make a system that relies in combos to boost/reduce damage such as a 30% penalty to damage for spamming the same skill and a 30% bonus for not using the same skill twice in a row or the stronger skills that would normally have a long cool down give them a delayed cast (a second or two) and or a greater mana cost any combination of these could work) Lastly when people say diablo2 wasn't even good pvp because it wasn't fair I fail to see how because with any class I could beat any class and with dupes most people wore pretty much identical gear the only thing it was missing was an arena system and some sort timer when people leave (5-10 seconds) considering the age of the game and the fact it wasn't intended to be a pvp based game I think it does pretty well |
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"I'm not disagreeing that it could be easier than without target locking. Watch what you say, because you didn't address anything I was talking about there (just addressing what I was talking about later on i.e. why target locking should exist at all). 1.Does it not make sense to pay a price (only use 1 skill) when target locking? 2. The game does not need to use diablo's system to implement multi-skill target locking. I gave an example which is just as fast as the Diablo 2 method. Anyway, your FPS argument is also a bad one, since FPS games while fast... don't have target locking. Target locking doesn't make the game faster at top-level, it just makes things easier i.e. take less skill. FPS is a perfect example of that, and it's why you don't see target locking in FPS (and why I don't see any game needing it) — your example just backfired IMO. "Shield charge does not follow the target, so that's an invalid/ineffective example — flicker strike works for that example though I suppose... but it's not hard to either hold shift (clicking on the target doesn't matter, and mouse can be kept in the same position to perform subsequent attacks), or to quickly re-position the mouse while flicker strike is being performed, before executing the next attack. 0.5s is plenty of time to reposition a cursor an inch or two. I don't really understand what you mean by the last 2 paragraphs "1. Why's it funny that I bring up MOBA games? 2. I never quoted you saying you hated DotA games, nor did I claim you hated DotA games. I was giving an example of great/fun games that use cooldowns. "No, for various reasons. 1. It doesn't work in cases where you can generate energy really quickly — such as allies donating energy, or stealing energy from others, or reducing energy costs substantially. 2. It doesn't work with regards to interrupts or knock-downs. If interrupts and/or knockdowns cost 50% energy pool, they'd be too weak, since they wouldn't be able to use any other abilities afterward. 3. It doesn't work well for abilities which have durations (block chance, damage reduction, heal over time, slows, party buffs, etc.). Take a Diablo 3 skill, Diamond armor, which absorbs damage for X seconds, up to a damage limit (which is pretty huge). Using both cooldowns AND energy allows you to have abilities that can have quite different traits, that cater to different roles. Having skill cooldowns is one of the biggest ways to encourage multiple skill use. In fact, it makes it required to do well, which IMO is a good thing. Managing multiple abilities takes lots of skill when they are mostly on 2-15 second cooldowns. Games can work without cooldowns, but calling them useless or dumb is completely unwarranted. Fresh cakes for all occasions.
Delivery in 30 eons or less Call 1-800-DOMINUS Remember - 'Dominus Delivers' |
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Well, all things considered, I'm okay with the current system, even if I'm dealing with the situation similar to that of a claw/kicker assassin in Diablo 2 -- using several charge-up skills and then a finisher. PoE forces you to only HOVER over the monster, without namelocking it, which is definitely clunky, but not necessarily in a bad way, as it may actually add to challenge. Because let's face it -- interface imperfections often translate into "features", and higher demand for player's skill; Starcraft is a perfect example with its poor pathfinding and other minor things that some consider clunky or bad design, but others (myself included, a big RTS fan) consider essential elements of competitive gameplay.
In this vein, in order to make two charges of one chargeup, and one charge of the other, and then release/finish, you have to: 1. point at a target and maintain cursor positioning manully, without using any of the mouse buttons 2. tap Q key two times (chargeup1) 3. tap W key one time (chargeup2) 4. tap E key once (finisher) And this is just fine by me, come to think of it. I guess the reason for the uncertainty is that current skillset is too limited and doesn't have more complex stuff like assassin-style chargeups, so we haven't tested the controls in these situations yet. BUT STILL: How the hell am I supposed to use 7-10 skills all the time? Where are the hotkeys for that? In Diablo 2, for instance, you could bind skills to any key you wanted (barring a few reserved keys). I still would really love to see a hybrid system of shortcuts (d2style+PoE style), or at least some way to allow me to bind AT LEAST 7 skills. Also, the Revive targeting hasn't been addressed in this thread yet (I explained it in my previous posts). You can't really do it right with PoE system, admit it. :D Last edited by atrokkus#1077 on Oct 12, 2011, 4:49:59 AM
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I really want more hotkeys then these 5 +3(mouse). For instance my witch cannot use phase run at the moment as I don't have any more free spots :(
(Mouse: default, raise zombie, fireball; keys: cold snap, temporal chains, elem weakness, critical weakness, raise spectre) |
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"my apologizes There's nothing to say that target locking SHOULD exist other then it's fun and people like it and only using one skill when target locking would make it pretty useless It doesn't need diablo's system but this entire thread isn't about changing the current system but to add diablo's system to the current game and there is clearly people in favor of this idea "My entire point for mentioning FPS's is to say face paced games is fun target locking would make the game a faster pace (in pvp) for mediocre players which arguably make up the majority of any games playerbase "I never really used shield charge much (only used it on bosses which don't really move much) I just kinda assumed it would work like diablo2's charge (Except with a shield) My apologizes but I think you got the geist of it " "That's from your first post on this page while I didn't exactly say "hate" I did say it and world of warcraft are the worst games ever made in my opinion and that is the same post that you said everything else in that I responded " 1. In most games skills are class specific so when designing skill penalties you'd keep in mind what other skills they have access to however in path of exile where this isn't the case you simply avoid skills that near instantly refill your mana (that alone is pretty op imo) 2. I'm not entirely sure what an interruption/knockdowns are unless it's a fancy form of stun locking in which everything in diablo2 has that and faster hit recovery is how that's countered 3. Reduce the pretty huge damage absorb and or duration now it's a spell that needs to constantly be casted to be useful which reduces your offensive power (just an example for the specific skill you have) Some other example of skills Holy shield from d2 increased block chance (no cool down and worked well) only skill off the top of my head that I can think of that has damage reduction with no penalty is ignore pain(diablo3) my suggesting here is add a penalty like 65% damage taken movement and attack speed reduced by 20% heal over time spells could be setup so they don't stack but simply restart the timer so casting it constantly wouldn't make you heal faster and therefore doesn't need a cool down Slows Decrpt from the necro didn't have a problem with that Party buffs? like war cries? if so doesn't need a cool down and can be balanced with duration " Cool downs ruin games in my opinion and they are useless if you take time to actually balance a skill To me cool downs happened because someone thought up a skill that would be "totally awesome" and then instead of balancing it decided "I'll just limit this to once every 25 seconds" my apologizes if I over looked something this time or if I've explained myself incorrectly |
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I really don't get the hate on cooldowns. They're just another tool in your skill building toolbox. No different than mana costs or cast times.
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" My opinions differ from the majority of gamers these days but heres my 2 cents. There is 2 types of "cooldowns" -The first one is short 3-10 secs which is normally on atking skills. -The second is a longer 2-5 mins which gets tied into short duration "buffs" In my opinion an ARPG should not have the first type(short cd's on atks) because it promotes a rotation. Rotations, while mindless once mastered, take a lot of focus to learn. This would also not be good for such a fast action game(packs of mobs can die <2 secs). I think a short cooldown on a temporary buff skill would be "ok" but im not pushing for it. This would be used for those hard champ/rare mobs and would not really change the mentality of normal killing. One thing I due want to note is that I have come to love the current system of skill and potion spamming. I know it is going to be changed and I am pretty sad. People say you just use 1 skill but that is not really true. Currently I use Shock Nova for AOE and Spark for Single. I also use Phase Run between every pack, Enduring Cry to get my endurance up at start of packs, and Temp Chains/Ele Weakness/Warlords on every pack. This gives me 7 skills that I am constantly casting albeit only 2 are my dmg skills. Also what I have discovered in the late game is the the "potion spam" feels like a rotation in this game. With the potion que'ing system, as soon as my mana is at half I hit my mana potion keys (45454) and my mana will regen for like 20secs. Last edited by zoL#2203 on Oct 13, 2011, 12:21:46 AM
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Is anyone going to answer my previous post?
" NEVER cater to mediocre players. I like target locking when it's actually a hidden option, like in Diablo2, something a lot of players never use right (noobs cannot chain-lock). " Cooldowns provide for tactical complexity and skill requirement. In diablo 2, cooldowns in skills like meteor and blizzard prompted player to think better on his skill combos -- you have to spam something while you're waiting for your meteor/blizzard. It's still sort of primitive incentive, but it worked. Also, you have to be able to feel the cooldown, timing your attacks better. In a lot of cases, i guess, you could argue that cooldown could be replaced with something else, but it's not a bad thing all by itself. |
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" I don't have an answer for you sorry :( " Making it easier for mediocre players to pvp isn't just catering to mediocre players it gives good players a challenge which is what any good player wants People who don't want things that would make pvp easier to do are mediocre players who think they're good (no offense if you're one of them) "Blizzard and meteor was pretty much avoided because their cool down made them a less then optimal choice Unless you add cool downs to pretty much everything then they don't really provide any tactical complexity or skill requirements they're simply avoided if you do add cool downs to just about everything you gotta keep in mind this isn't an RTS it still doesn't add tactical complexity it just slows the game pace down PS: Free to play games need mediocre players to survive |
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