Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

Danntboy-I agree with your perspective but not with the way you are trying to go about it.

There is no need to call them exploiters and hackers or anything of that nature. All that does is derail them from posting constructive responses and makes them reply defensively and not focusing on the main points.

I do however completely agree that saying the world in Path of Exile is unfair so the mechanics should be to is silly. With that attitude I would say every league should be cut-throat/hardcore.

"

I have nothing against fairness, but individual loot isn't any more fair than FFA. All loot can go to anyone, restricted only by the players' response. It's not like the game automatically gives loot to melee characters. Everyone has a chance to get to it, and when the timed system is implemented ranged characters will have the presumed disadvantages removed.

If there is a set of people trying to stay away from mobs and a group of people who fight right next to a crowd and an item drops the tank can grab it. If the ranger or witch wants to stay away to stay alive (especially in hardcore) the melee will still grab it after the few seconds leeway is gone.

If it isn't too much work to implement, why not have different loot systems for each league...

Having a FFA loot system on cut-throat leagues would give it more of the feel that the name implies, where players are left to fend for themselves and never fully trust those around them.

Hardcore and maybe some of the other planned leagues could have a timed allocation system so players are less likely to just stop attacking and swoop in to grab the item while putting themselves and their group in danger. This would also prevent tank builds from being able to snag up everything while leaving other classes in the party under equipped.

As for default league, having individual drops would help differentiate it from the other leagues while being catered more towards casual players. I'm sure it would just get dubbed the care-bear league though.

"

Danntboy wrote:

First off, there were no insults made unless you are an individual who plans to exploit others with an FFA system. Therefore, I make zero apologies about offending such a person.

It sounds like I need to point out what you said, rather than what you think you said.

"

Danntboy wrote:

Only exploiters would have issue with that system.

I have issues with the individual loot system; therefore, according to you, I am an exploiter. You clearly find this term as much of an insult as I do. It's also a false statement, but

"

Danntboy wrote:

second, and this is the insult, your reasoning about how the world of Wraeclast is by nature "unfair" and so the game play should also be IS delusional to the nth degree.

Delusional how? And as I believe I've said (and as Whiteboy88 pointed explained in perhaps clearer terms), "fairness" isn't necessarily a matter of "everyone gets the same amount of stuff" - FFA is fair in the sense of "everyone gets the same amount of access to stuff".

"

Danntboy wrote:

Oh, and I hope that people saw the hypocrisy of you telling others to not throw out insults when in THE SAME Paragraph you say my and the other poster's views are delusional.

True, it's a definite insult to the viewpoint, if not to the person behind it (which is more what I was objecting to). Apologies in that regard.
I should clarify what I meant - a character, thrown into Wraeclast, would be delusional to think, immediately and without prior knowledge (since, after all, they've been exiled to a continent no one returns from to tell anything about), that items somehow magically become invisible to all but one person in the area when dropped - but only when dropped because the carrier died, not when dropped because the carrier did it intentionally.

"

Danntboy wrote:

So, what I will take from your post is that your acknowledgement that the FFA system is as unfair as the hard, cold world that Wraeclast actually supports the idea that the current system is, indeed, unfair. That, is in fact, the debate and I doubt that the developers actually want a player to feel screwed over and angry just because the game world they created is like that for the characters. No, I think that no matter how rough and tumble the virtual word becomes, the developers will want the player to have an enjoyable experience.

Let's leave the "unfair" part of the experience as part of the storyline and not part of how much advantage one player can take of another.

Read the above discussion on different kinds of "fairness". And if you're feeling "screwed over and angry" because you weren't fast enough to grab a particular item (and the person who actually picked it up didn't want to give it up afterwards), you can opt to
(a) avoid parties with that player in the future,
(b) look for items they want and pick those up first, or
(c) in the cutthroat leagues - kill them and loot the item in question off their corpse.
Conversely, it also feels a lot better to find a really good item when you know everyone else in the party saw you pick it up that session (rather than just hauled it out of the stash for the occasion).

"

Danntboy wrote:

I'd love to hear a dev chime in on this. I'd really like to know if they intend for other gamers to be exploited because that would somehow fit their vision for players of PoE. Somehow, I don't think it does in the least. Quite the contrary, the struggles in the game should bring people together in working together, not making a few elite player more elite.

"

Chris wrote:

It's important to us that Path of Exile has a cut-throat feel where players are not only competing against monsters, but also their fellow players. We do not feel it is an option to arbitrarily hide items from players who have not been allocated them.

"

Danntboy wrote:

Please, by all means, let's continue this debate. I want to know more about how an individual drop system is flawed when everyone is still getting drops.

It's like getting an award for participation rather than for winning - sure, you've got your award, but so does everyone else. It dulls the sensation of triumph when you actually get an amazing item.

"

soulweaverx wrote:

If there is a set of people trying to stay away from mobs and a group of people who fight right next to a crowd and an item drops the tank can grab it. If the ranger or witch wants to stay away to stay alive (especially in hardcore) the melee will still grab it after the few seconds leeway is gone.

If the ranger or witch thinks the item is worth the risk, they can go in, grab it, and get back out within about five seconds, and - as I've said before - staying out of the fight means they've had what amounts to 100% damage reduction. Plenty of time - if they're paying attention, which is the point - for them to grab it before the tank in question even becomes aware of it. If you can't survive five seconds at close(r) range, it's not the loot system causing problems.

"

Skivverus wrote:

True, it's a definite insult to the viewpoint, if not to the person behind it (which is more what I was objecting to). Apologies in that regard.
I should clarify what I meant - a character, thrown into Wraeclast, would be delusional to think, immediately and without prior knowledge (since, after all, they've been exiled to a continent no one returns from to tell anything about), that items somehow magically become invisible to all but one person in the area when dropped - but only when dropped because the carrier died, not when dropped because the carrier did it intentionally.

You do realize it's just a game, right? If it was real life I think I would be more depressed by the fact that no matter how many times I clear an area 15 minutes later everything is there again. Or how some full grown warriors act like 12 year olds (Not a reference to anyone in this forum).

"

Skivverus wrote:

Read the above discussion on different kinds of "fairness". And if you're feeling "screwed over and angry" because you weren't fast enough to grab a particular item (and the person who actually picked it up didn't want to give it up afterwards), you can opt to
(a) avoid parties with that player in the future,
(b) look for items they want and pick those up first, or
(c) in the cutthroat leagues - kill them and loot the item in question off their corpse.
Conversely, it also feels a lot better to find a really good item when you know everyone else in the party saw you pick it up that session (rather than just hauled it out of the stash for the occasion).

So you are supporting a system where the number one solution is to avoid playing with other people? O.o

Then your second solution is to pick up items that -other- people want? When the problem is that people don't believe everyone will have a fair chance to grab what they can? O.o

In the cuthroat league I think the system works perfectly.

"

bottleflu wrote:

If it isn't too much work to implement, why not have different loot systems for each league...

Having a FFA loot system on cut-throat leagues would give it more of the feel that the name implies, where players are left to fend for themselves and never fully trust those around them.

Hardcore and maybe some of the other planned leagues could have a timed allocation system so players are less likely to just stop attacking and swoop in to grab the item while putting themselves and their group in danger. This would also prevent tank builds from being able to snag up everything while leaving other classes in the party under equipped.

As for default league, having individual drops would help differentiate it from the other leagues while being catered more towards casual players. I'm sure it would just get dubbed the care-bear league though.

I think Bottleflu's idea seem like the best suggestion and combination of our view points. I would still be in the hardcore league. And a few seconds is all I want the range to waste on loot. The cut-throat people will have what they want. And the people who want everyone to have their own loot are most likely the people playing in the default league.... So it is a win win situation, no?

[/quote]Conversely, it also feels a lot better to find a really good item when you know everyone else in the party saw you pick it up that session (rather than just hauled it out of the stash for the occasion).

There are ways to have an individual loot system where all the players can see the items on screen... Dungeon Hunter: Alliance for the PS3 did it fairly well for being a relatively simple game. Each player in the party was assigned a colored halo around their feet (depending on the order they joined the party) and the boxes that bordered the title of the items on the ground were the same color of the players halo that they were allocated to. There was also a colored aura on the item on the ground, so you could easily hide items boxes so they don't clutter up the screen without having to worry about missing your loot.

This might look a bit to cartoon-ish for PoE though

I just had to chime in here about the totally out of context quote made earlier about the "cut throat" feel of PoE.

Chris was referring to the games grit and feel. He was also referring to the PvP elements of the future game. He was not, however, indicating that PoE was meant to be a place where other players took advantage of the system, explotited new players, or otherwise made the gaming experience unenjoyable for others.

Sorry, that whole train of though was just plain insulting and a sad attempt to justify and keep an explotable and outdated looting system intact.

At least kep things within context if you are going to be quoting GGG or other authorities.

Thanks

GB

"

Greenbean wrote:

I just had to chime in here about the totally out of context quote made earlier about the "cut throat" feel of PoE.

Chris was referring to the games grit and feel. He was also referring to the PvP elements of the future game. He was not, however, indicating that PoE was meant to be a place where other players took advantage of the system, explotited new players, or otherwise made the gaming experience unenjoyable for others.

Sorry, that whole train of though was just plain insulting and a sad attempt to justify and keep an explotable and outdated looting system intact.

At least kep things within context if you are going to be quoting GGG or other authorities.

That quote is taken from the first post in this very thread -- about the looting system. Chris and the devs, of course, don't want to cater to exploiters, but they do want looting to have a competitive nature. This is very clearly stated in the context of that quote.


@Danntboy
I've already given a few examples of how an individual loot system is unfair compared to a FFA system. The definition of "fair" is based on one's opinion. I think a FFA system is fair in most aspects (and the timed system will remove all perceived unfairness that is being complained about). I also think individual loot is fair in most ways, but flawed in the fact that players' individual stats control drops from kills they may have taken no part in.

I also take it as a personal insult that you're calling me an exploiter who just wants to take advantage of people. I'm a very helpful person who goes out of my way to help others. In the beta, I've often let other players have drops that I want. I recently gave away a few hundred currency items to random people in the game. If I wanted to screw people over, I could have let all that sit until the next wipe. Instead, I chose to let someone else have fun with it. Also, GGG seems to think highly enough of Skivverus and I to let us participate in the alpha test. We're not out to screw people over. We're just offering reasons why FFA isn't as fun-crushing as many people are implying it will be (some who haven't even played the game yet, no less). As others have said, it's just a game. If you can't have fun with other people in this game, it just might not be the game for you. It's the same sort of situation as playing a FPS where someone steals all your kills. You may not be getting what you want and having your idea of fun, but that doesn't mean the game is flawed.

And on the argument that FFA loot endangers the ranged characters and lets the melee guys grab all the loot:
In my experience, this argument is totally flawed and invalid. You can't click on enemies if the screen is covered in loot. Ranged characters can still fight effectively with loot showing, whilst melee generally can't. Ranged characters actually have a large advantage because of this. The melee characters are tanking away, distracted from loot when enemies are still close by. Ranged characters are usually perfectly safe when they run in to grab something. If anything, people should be arguing that the system is unfair for melee.

"

WhiteBoy88 wrote:

@Danntboy
I've already given a few examples of how an individual loot system is unfair compared to a FFA system. The definition of "fair" is based on one's opinion. I think a FFA system is fair in most aspects (and the timed system will remove all perceived unfairness that is being complained about). I also think individual loot is fair in most ways, but flawed in the fact that players' individual stats control drops from kills they may have taken no part in.

I have to ask. With a FFA loot system how will that be any different. If I have 200% Magic Find and I kill a mob and a Ranger grabs the item, how would that be any different if the Ranger had its own drop?

"

WhiteBoy88 wrote:

I also take it as a personal insult that you're calling me an exploiter who just wants to take advantage of people.

I don't think your character (Not game character) is in question here. Anyone with any activity on the forums knows your demeanor.

"

WhiteBoy88 wrote:

We're just offering reasons why FFA isn't as fun-crushing as many people are implying it will be (some who haven't even played the game yet, no less). As others have said, it's just a game. If you can't have fun with other people in this game, it just might not be the game for you. It's the same sort of situation as playing a FPS where someone steals all your kills. You may not be getting what you want and having your idea of fun, but that doesn't mean the game is flawed.

So the one reason you gave for everyone having their own loot being bad applies to FFA as well. Was there any other reasons why everyone having their own loot is bad?

The only reason reason I can see for FFA over everyone getting their own loot is because GGG wants it that way. I think someone said it well when they said it's like everyone is saying they want a green card but GGG is telling them they are going to get a blue card. If that is the case I am sure everyone who doesn't approve will accept it. But if you are going to ask our opinion or for our feedback it really seems the majority (me included) feel FFA is old and flawed.

"

WhiteBoy88 wrote:

And on the argument that FFA loot endangers the ranged characters and lets the melee guys grab all the loot:
In my experience, this argument is totally flawed and invalid. You can't click on enemies if the screen is covered in loot.

There is an option to make it so you only grab loot when you press alt. It fixes that right up.

"

Altnaharra wrote:

Because it takes away from the 'rush' of loot drops.

That rush will be there regardless. When I am playing by myself and a drop happens I still look I still wonder. I never hear a drop and think, "Oh this is pointless there is no one to take it from me." With that logic when an item drops there can be a 50% chance it gets destroyed when it hits the ground. That way each time you see a drop pop out your heart can flutter and you can hope you can take a glance at it.

"

Altnaharra wrote:

Another reason.. Say you're in a party with a player that takes forever doing anything. Collecting his loot is just another reason for him/her to have their thumb up their arse.

This is another one of those things that will happen either way. Slow player will be a slow player whether he is FFA or getting his own loot. I have to ask are you implying players with slow response times should get loot, or shouldn't be playing a game? I would not group a slow player in the same category I would group an item hog.

"

Altnaharra wrote:

Lastly their is no honor in having your own loot table. With a free system players actually have to have some decency to retain partnerships.
Loyal allies can be hard to come by.

So your idea of a good feature for a game is having the ability to try and weed loot hoarders, people who will do anything to get that yellow (Hackers), and people who feel they deserve the loot more because they can click faster with a better connection?

That seems silly especially when the solution is so easy and right in front of everyone and most people are not just talking about it but asking for it.

"

soulweaverx wrote:

I have to ask. With a FFA loot system how will that be any different. If I have 200% Magic Find and I kill a mob and a Ranger grabs the item, how would that be any different if the Ranger had its own drop?

In the current FFA system, the player landing the killing blow determines the drops. This forces players to make a choice: kill speed or loot stats. This creates a sort of balance, where players have to participate (by getting kills) to get rewards for their IIR/IIQ builds. If they don't kill, their IIR/IIQ stats are wasted. If GGG were to make an individual loot system, they would have to choose one of two basic rules:

-The person landing the killing blow determines everyone's drops. This would piss off a lot of people, especially those who want to stack IIR/IIQ stats at the expense of killing speed, as it would negate all their build effort when some strong-arming marauder or nuke-caster keeps landing final hits. In your example, the Ranger would have received drops equal to yours, based on your stats.

-An individual's stats determine his own drops regardless of the killing blow. This promotes multiple-character farming where one person runs with a main "kill" build and one or more IIR/IIQ builds tagging along for better drops. It also promotes leeching. In your example, the Ranger could have gotten very poor drops, even if she caused the most damage, or she could have gotten much better drops, even if she didn't do any damage at all.

Of course, they could try to create a system in which each player's individual drops are determined by the amount of damage he did, how close he was to the kill, etc. But there are a lot of things to consider and a lot of coding, and I doubt GGG is willing to put the dev time into that.

"

soulweaverx wrote:

There is an option to make it so you only grab loot when you press alt. It fixes that right up.

Even with that option enabled, it's quite common that you can't even see your targets under the loot icons. I still believe this point is valid.

I've said it a couple times before (once in this thread, I think) that I would actually prefer an individual loot system. Not to seem hypocritical -- this is a personal desire that I think is far out of place and should not be accommodated. I realize that I only desire it because one of my favorite games of all time (Hellgate: London) introduced the concept to me and I absolutely loved it after years of fighting pickit users in D2. But, I can understand GGG's point of view and their reasoning for having FFA loot in this game, and I have no real opposition to it. It's simply a different style of gameplay, and I'm comfortable with that. I think FFA is overall slightly fairer than individual loot, and it adds a new element to the game that can be competitive or cooperative, or even both. I like systems that require people to work together lest they go at each others' throats; it has a real-world feel as that is human nature.

Both systems have very valid merits. They both have levels of fairness, they both require different build and play strategies, and they both could work.

With all that said, if there were an official poll on the matter, my vote would go to FFA, because I think it's better for the game. My personal preference doesn't fit this game, in my opinion.