Intermittent Reinforcement

This is a great thread.

I don't mean to always sound like a downer/hater, but unfortunately, it seems GGG are dead set on what can be described as an ideological viewpoint of RNG puritanism.

For instance, their response to the mapping issue:

"

We are 100% happy with how maps work as far as the item system goes (and are amazed by how much even white items from the highest maps are worth), but we're not happy with how it affects players who are trying to grind for the highest spots on the ladder.

From this statement in the Manifesto, you see how excited Chris and GGG are by the fact that we rely on pure luck/chance to get the higher level maps, which we then have to invest orbs on, and more RNG to get high ilvl gear. Then, after we acquire the aforementioned white items, we have to gamble even more to add affixes, sockets, and links.

We can infer that their goal is strictly focused on the market value of items when it's a pain to trade anyway without external websites. (It's no wonder these 3rd party apps and sites have become more prevalent.)

In my opinion, exp and ladder are minor issues compared to itemization problems. They make PoE untenable to play solo and/or self-found in the permanent leagues.

I'm really tired but I think zaka agrees with me. Past experiences taught me if zaka agrees then the math agrees. Go moosie. Fuck I'm tired, insomnia sucks.

yeah moos, we agree. But my analysis only covers stacker mods, not standalone mods.

On that point:

- I'd like to see "niche" mods more required for the builds they support. Reduce the number of items you can get crit mods with, make each mod worth more. Reduce the number of items you can get a mana mod on, make mana mods larger.
- The "bad" mods. Stun recovery, reflect, etc. If they're going to stay their value should be tripled, or something. Again limit the number of slots they can appear on.

What I don't like about the things I'm saying: those are global power hikes. That means there's probably a better way to address standalone mods and build diversity.

On top of what has been said above, we have still iron rings that gives us a whopping 1-4 physical damage and then some funny mods on a lvl 70 shield (Lioneye's Remorse), like having "-25 Physical Damage taken from Ranged Attacks", just wow.

Edit: And while Moos has mentioned some recipes, even not directly related, why not bringing orbs back as a selectable quest rewards ? Make it happen on Merciless difficulty only to prevent abuses. Seeing same fucking gems over and over in reward list doesn't make any sense in no manner. It is called making fool of people in the first place mind you.

Love the orginal posts agree with everything hope ggg gets a good look at it.

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jeois wrote:

This is a great thread.

I don't mean to always sound like a downer/hater, but unfortunately, it seems GGG are dead set on what can be described as an ideological viewpoint of RNG puritanism.

For instance, their response to the mapping issue:

"

We are 100% happy with how maps work as far as the item system goes (and are amazed by how much even white items from the highest maps are worth), but we're not happy with how it affects players who are trying to grind for the highest spots on the ladder.

From this statement in the Manifesto, you see how excited Chris and GGG are by the fact that we rely on pure luck/chance to get the higher level maps, which we then have to invest orbs on, and more RNG to get high ilvl gear. Then, after we acquire the aforementioned white items, we have to gamble even more to add affixes, sockets, and links.

We can infer that their goal is strictly focused on the market value of items when it's a pain to trade anyway without external websites. (It's no wonder these 3rd party apps and sites have become more prevalent.)

In my opinion, exp and ladder are minor issues compared to itemization problems. They make PoE untenable to play solo and/or self-found in the permanent leagues.

I agree 100% with the original post, but I have a feeling this quoted post is right on the nose. It doesn't help that there are a ton of people on these forums that dismiss any changes that in any way seem like they might impinge upon their arbitrary, subjective views of what constitutes hardcore, thus perhaps giving GGG the impression that their games very dire flaws are working fine, and anyone that doesn't agree "just isn't hardcore enough".

Translation of Zak's post: make the gap between mediocre rolls and high rolls less severe, so that less lucky players still get decent gear. Lucky/persistent player still get better gear, just not stuff that makes most people's gear look useless.

Uh, anyways, the main thing I got out of moosifers post is that the tuning of the intermittent rewards system is off and there are not enough non-RNG reward avenues, which leaves too many people either fucked over in reality or at least feeling they're fucked over. In a well tuned system this would only demoralize and drive away a tiny amount of truly super unlucky people, but from the feedback I'm seeing, that's not currently the case.

As for things I don't agree with, the whole looking for the same mods issue only really occurs on three bits of armor, mainly chest, hat and belt (boots to lesser extent since a lot of people don't give a fuck about mana, but I care about mana so my boot mod choices are harder). Well, 3-4 bits of armor is a lot of the slots, but I find that the choices on gloves, rings, amulets and weps/shields are quite interesting and there's no single type everyone looks for, it's all tradeoffs and what is good for your build and current gear setup.

"

jeois wrote:

This is a great thread.

I don't mean to always sound like a downer/hater, but unfortunately, it seems GGG are dead set on what can be described as an ideological viewpoint of RNG puritanism.

For instance, their response to the mapping issue:

"

We are 100% happy with how maps work as far as the item system goes (and are amazed by how much even white items from the highest maps are worth), but we're not happy with how it affects players who are trying to grind for the highest spots on the ladder.

From this statement in the Manifesto, you see how excited Chris and GGG are by the fact that we rely on pure luck/chance to get the higher level maps, which we then have to invest orbs on, and more RNG to get high ilvl gear. Then, after we acquire the aforementioned white items, we have to gamble even more to add affixes, sockets, and links.

We can infer that their goal is strictly focused on the market value of items when it's a pain to trade anyway without external websites. (It's no wonder these 3rd party apps and sites have become more prevalent.)

In my opinion, exp and ladder are minor issues compared to itemization problems. They make PoE untenable to play solo and/or self-found in the permanent leagues.

Problem with this is that it isn't correct saying GGG does itemization/droprates based on the market. GGG balances droprates/orb effects around an average time it would take for you to completely pimp out your character, and making that time quite long, so that someone could continually strive to improve their characters for years.

So for example, they didn't care about market value when they nerfed exalt drops in 2011, they looked at the availability and thought: the abundance of exalts is making the time to pimp gear (TTPG) shorter than we want, if we cut their droprates in half we can extend the TTPG by 6 months. (numbers of course made up by me)

2nd problem is that self found is not untenable, just that people are either not good enough at the game or are playing bad specs, or are playing melee, or are very unlucky. The 'playing melee part' is a legit issue, and the 'very unlucky' part is what this thread is about, but I bet that the first two issues account for most people who think self found is somehow broken/impossible.

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Uvne wrote:

I just want to speak for a small contingency who prefer to think of PoE like chess rather than pachinko.

Interesting post. Not sure what you want can every really happen for the majority of the game.

But I am looking forward to a chess instead of pachinko situation for PvP far down the line, when the default economy is so full of items that everyone can easily get whatever they need for their builds and PvP is based on your strategy, tactics, and ability to adapt to the opponent.

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aimlessgun wrote:

2nd problem is that self found is not untenable, just that people are either not good enough at the game or are playing bad specs, or are playing melee, or are very unlucky. The 'playing melee part' is a legit issue, and the 'very unlucky' part is what this thread is about, but I bet that the first two issues account for most people who think self found is somehow broken/impossible.

I think you'd be surprised how many of those "bad specs", with better gear, suddenly become viable and very good specs. Some specs are more gear dependent than others. Others have more severe viability curves (extreme viability at high level of gear, mediocre at lower levels).

Part of the problem is the difficulty in rolling decent gear for certain item types. You want a decent bow? Fairly easy. You want a decent staff or wand? Good luck with that.