Arctic Armor and Mana Regen: Something doesn't add up

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jeffadkins51 wrote:

I could be wrong here, but following this same logic, discipline is a buff, it's one we choose to apply to ourselves, and thus if we have inner force it should increase the mana reserved to use it. *shrug*

This is a good point.

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jeffadkins51 wrote:

I mean if you guys want it to work that way, you're the guys in charge, I just don't understand why it's the only skill in the game that follows this set of rules, no other skills have increased costs when using inner force right?

Righteous Fire behaves similarly if you count taking fire damage as the cost. Inner Force will make you take more fire damage/s.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

It's considered a buff as opposed to a debuff because it's overall positive to you and is something you chose to apply to yourself that you can turn off at any time.

That explanation of a "buff" doesn't add up.

By your logic, all aura costs/reservations should be considered as a buff, because the "overall effect" is positive. There is no such thing as "positive overall effect".

Every buff has a cost. If you can afford the cost, you run it. Same goes for this skill.

Counting negative mana regen as a buff is illogical. Negative mana regen is mana degeneration, not regen. Something that affects your character negatively can't be a buff, it's a debuff.


It's silly to see you (GGG developers), who so strongly value precise wording, intuitive work of skills and following already set trends to change your "understanding/interpretation" of a skill, just to justify its mechanics.


As someone said already - it's your game, if you want mana cost to be affected by inner force, then so be it. But don't go tell people that losing mana is a buff, because it is not. It is a cost of using certain skills, and if inner force doesn't affect aura reservation cost, then it should not affect this skill (and/or righteous fire either).



PS. Sorry if this post seems a bit to sharp or arrogant, but one of the things that got me to play and stick to this game is the mentality of the developers and how you follow your own rules and logic. Seeing you show inconsistency in your interpretation of how skills should work is something I never expected.

-1 about the last post.

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is something you chose to apply to yourself that you can turn off at any time.

You choose it. You can turn off when you want. It's a buff. (even if there is negative effect on it)

Curse -> you didn't choose it. You can't turn it off. It's a debuff.


Aura -> not a buff. To activate the aura, you need to reserve an amount of mana. If you will, you'll got the buff from the aura. The buff will be raise by IF.


There is no inconsistency here, it seems logical.


Sorry for my English.


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Thanks for clearing everything up, Neon and Mark. All the numbers add up now and I can build accordingly.

I am sorry Hadrieno but, you make no sense.

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Hadrieno wrote:

You choose it. You can turn off when you want. It's a buff. (even if there is negative effect on it)

Firstly, you can turn off auras when you want too, still Inner force doesn't affect their cost (reservation).

Secondly, here is the definition of debuff: An effect that makes a game character weaker.

Source: Various, google it yourself.

Loosing mana makes you unable to use skills, so it does make your character weaker indeed. A debuff by definition, no matter how you, or the game developers choose to call it.

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Hadrieno wrote:

Curse -> you didn't choose it. You can't turn it off. It's a debuff.

While we agree here (that curses are debuffs), you logic is still incorrect, since they are such because they affect you negatively, not because you can't turn them off.

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Hadrieno wrote:

Aura -> not a buff. To activate the aura, you need to reserve an amount of mana. If you will, you'll got the buff from the aura. The buff will be raise by IF.

By aura being not a buff, you mean it's cost (reservation) I guess? So you agree that the skill has a buff and a debuff (reservation) part? Then why does it seem illogical to you then, for the arctic armor be made of a buff and a debuff part?

Buff: Buff to physical and fire resistance.
Debuff: Mana degeneration.

Inner force should affect the first (since it is a buff), and not the second (since is not a buff).


The mana degeneration part of arctic armor is NOT a buff, no matter how you look at it and should not be affected by inner force. This breaks the foundations of logic that GGG developers have set themselves by the way aura and aura reservations synergy with inner force. It simply makes no sense to treat mana reservation as debuff and mana degeneration as a buff.

Hi,

There is an obvious solution: henceforth only apply inner force's effect on the positive (buff) part of all skills to make the skill's effect unambiguous.

Thanks,
ZaM

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pneuma wrote:

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jeffadkins51 wrote:

I mean if you guys want it to work that way, you're the guys in charge, I just don't understand why it's the only skill in the game that follows this set of rules, no other skills have increased costs when using inner force right?

Righteous Fire behaves similarly if you count taking fire damage as the cost. Inner Force will make you take more fire damage/s.

Ah, thanks for that tid bit of information, I was actually unaware of that skills interactions with inner force, very interesting, but I can understand it working like that whereas I'm still not 100% comfortable with arctic armor's interaction with inner force, it just seems a little "off" somehow, at least to me.

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The mana degeneration part of arctic armor is NOT a buff, no matter how you look at it and should not be affected by inner force. This breaks the foundations of logic that GGG developers have set themselves by the way aura and aura reservations synergy with inner force. It simply makes no sense to treat mana reservation as debuff and mana degeneration as a buff.

So like GGG explained previously in this thread, you have effects that you choose to apply to your character (buffs) and you effects that you do NOT choose (debuffs).

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Arctic_Armor

If you look at the description you can see that the skill has a cast time, base duration, cost, and applied effect (or the buff, because you are optionally applying it to yourself).


Cast time: 0.5 sec
Base Duration is x seconds
Mana Reserved(Cost): 0
Effect (aka, Buff):
x Mana drained per second
Additional x Mana drained per second while moving
-x Physical Damage taken when hit
-x Fire Damage taken when hit

Inner Force: x% increased Effect of Buffs on You

So based off of what Mark said, Inner Force will increase the effect of [any]effect that a buff applies to your character. Since part of the buff is to drain x Mana, this effect is also increased.

Do I like that it works this way? No, obviously not as awesome if the mana drain didn't increase.

Does it logically make sense that all effects (negative and positive) become increased? From a programming point of view I would say Yes. Because the mana drain is part of the effect and not the cost, it is increased. Same reason why mana reserve from aura's are not increase. They are part of the cost parameter and not the effect parameter.

Also:

A Blood Magic support gem can be linked to Arctic Armour but it will reserve 0 Life instead of 0 Mana. Arctic Armour still drains mana when activated.

The Blood Magic keystone removes all mana and makes this skill unusable.

Mana Cost Multipliers, such as 150% from Increased Duration or reduction from Reduced Mana Cost, do not affect Mana Drained or Mana Drained while moving.