Puncture

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Zindax wrote:

I saw this in the patch notes:

Physical percentage based damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage.

So now armor provides quadratic bleed resists the same as fire resistance mitigates burning?

I don't think I got an answer on this and I'm not really sure how this mechanic would work. So lets say a character has 3 endurance charges up. It seems clear from this language that the charge would lessen the bleed by 12%, not just from the actual hit, but additionally on the bleed. Additionally, it would seem that immortal call would temporarily stop all bleed effects, even if applied after the bleed began, and especially if prior to puncture hitting (there would be no bleed at all).

However, how would this work with armor? Lets say a target gets hit for 1000 damage and armor negates 20% of that. So the bleed is based off of 800 damage. Lets say the bleed dot is 40% with passives and everything else. So the target would be 40% of 800 damage for a total of 320 dps for the bleed. Then how does armor work? Does it say, ok well the hit was strong enough so that 20% of the hit was removed, so arbitrarily, we are taking off another 20% of the bleed damage so the bleed is 256 dps? In other words, armor doesn't care how strong the bleed is, it only cares how strong the hit is?

Like I understand what the words, "Physical percentage based damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage." in the sentence mean, however, I am unclear as to what you mean by the words correctly, in terms of the specific mechanics as to how physical percentage based damage reduction works. Does that clarity the question?

Does armor have no effect on bleed damage post hoc? Do only endurance charges and immortal call affect bleed damage post hoc? Does evasion allow a character to "evade" part of the bleed damage. I would imagine the incoming snide answer, "Of course not, evasion allows a character to evade attacks containing any form of damage, and while bleeds result from attacks, bleed damage is NOT attack damage, it is physical damage over time."

Great. Thank you for my answer imaginary translucent phosphorescent GGG person hovering next to me (that looks like Captain Fairgraves), but does it work with armor? Because, although evasion works on all attacks, armor works on all physical damage regardless of whether its an attack or spell (ethereal knives) or neither (bear trap). So, since bleed damage is physical damage over time, does armor negate a bleed? And don't give me any snide answer like, "Does armor stop you from bleeding?" because you know this is a fair question imaginary translucent phosphorescent GGG person hovering beside me that looks like Captain Fairgraves.

No, armor doesn't negate bleed damage. Not because it shouldn't, but because it wouldn't. Wouldn't? Have you lost your mind? Nevermind the answer to that question, because it is not germane to the topic at hand. You see, through Sherlock Holmes mystery reasoning, I have concluded that armor itself does not negate bleed damage. Why?

Well ask yourself the following question, if armor DID negate bleed damage in a post hoc fashion, how could a person who is metacognitively aware of the existence of other people and the fact that they have minds that would also think and ask questions, and would also be aware that other people are know they think, and are capable of imagining that someone else (GGG) is thinking about their questions, and how best to answer them, possibly think that:

"Physical percentage based damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage."

adequately answers that armor OF COURSE does negate bleed damage in a post hoc fashion, and not ONLY does it adequately answer that, the sentence explicates by inference the exact mathematical mechanics as to HOW armor negates bleed damage.

Ok Mr. Smartypants, well my puncture arrow his for 1000 damage against a target that has 3500 armor. Assuming that target is stationary, and with my passives, my bleed is 40% of hit damage. After armor negates the hit, what percentage of the 40% bleed damage is negated by armor?

28%. Clearly there are no further questions because the sentence:

"Physical percentage based damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage."

clearly explains this. In fact, the clarity is above reproach so HOW DARE YOU EVEN QUESTION IT?!?

I don't think armor applies any direct decrease in damage from the bleed effect, since it really isn't percentage based (like resistances) but rather based on the damage intake per hit (bleeding doesn't hit).

So in my oppinion this reduction is only caused by physical resistance (that's the map mod), endurance charges and immortal call.

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Physical percentage based damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage.

Maybe I should have read this as:

"Physical ***PeRcEnTaGe*** BaSeD damage reduction and Immortal Call now correctly mitigate damage from physical degeneration damage.

So if there was a skill such as Arc of the Covanant Face Melting Totem that did a percentage of your health physical bleeding damage per sec based upon your proximity and whether or not you were looking at the totem, armor would have no effect.

There should probably be a few arrows pointing at the percentage part, and even still it would be hard to tell, since the tooltip gives physical reduction in terms of a percentage, but with enough arrows, and perhaps some flashing lights around percentage based, I might get it. Maybe.

Daniel_GGG already stated that armor does not affect the Bleeding DoT

The tooltip you see in your character screen is the total damage reduction % which is an approximated total because armor does not reduce damage as a flat %. Endurance charges give a flat % reduction and now affects bleed DoT. Armor does not affect the bleed DoT the same way that arctic armor does not affect burning damage.

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Cuddlepaws wrote:

Daniel_GGG already stated that armor does not affect the Bleeding DoT

The tooltip you see in your character screen is the total damage reduction % which is an approximated total because armor does not reduce damage as a flat %. Endurance charges give a flat % reduction and now affects bleed DoT. Armor does not affect the bleed DoT the same way that arctic armor does not affect burning damage.

Granted, you guys are probably better at keeping up with each other's personal texts. I only went from deduction alone from what I read in the patch notes, where from deduction I reasoned the same thing that you must have read that Daniel said somewhere. Cool. We are on the same page. Also, thanks for the clarification. And you didn't know that I know how physical damage percentage is approximated so it doesn't hurt to explain just in case and for anyone else who needs to learn.

It is possible; however that armor COULD be used to negate a DoT if it calculated a snapshot physical damage reduction percentage at the time of the hit and then used that percentage to apply it to a percentile reduction that would be applied to the DoT (not sure if you understood that I said this). This would be done in a way similar to the tooltip, instead rather than estimating the average mob's physical damage per hit and then plugging it with the armor in the formula to approximate an average physical damage reduction percentage, the actual physical damage and the actual armor (we have no idea what the armor is of each mob, but GGG does) to find the physical damage reduction percentage.

Could this be what GGG did? Absolutely. I only reasoned (guessed) that they didn't do it this way because they must have known that there would be questions about the mechanics like "how the hell does armor which is a flat number apply a percentile reduction to a bleed?" Well, it wouldn't be impossible. I just told you how they could do it, just that my reasoning based upon human nature that they most likely wouldn't do it this way. Of course, I could have been wrong.

But if you got a text message from someone that told you the same thing that I had to decipher then good for you. At least now, my thoughts and you repeating what they said is documented in the forums for posterity.

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azraelb wrote:

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SEXYSUPERSATAN wrote:

Does anyone have a successful puncture build?

dont think so... never saw a single one.
Burning is simmilar mechanic but 10 times better and works with ele profil. for huge AoE.

Also, I wanted to give feedback since I saw that others asked about a "successful" puncture.

"Successful" is such a hard word. I am not sure if this qualifies up to your standards, but...

For the record, I think this is a decent single target skill that can be part of a rotation with other skills.

For example, I use for frenzy and rain of arrows in a physical crit build. Then, on bosses, and only on a mob that will be alive for a decent bit, I swap to my to apply a puncture on a boss.

What is nice about this skill is that it is a reliable single target dps skill when combined with a ranged attack and movement speed. I use , build up to 6-7 frenzy charges to increase my life regen and movement speed, then I can switch to puncture, puncture then mob, then run if necessary. Frenzy can be placed on the chest or other piece and you can run. Most bosses are mobile and will chase you. This is not a skill for trash. If you want to vaporize rooms full of white mobs, there are other skills such as an high dmg fire ignite proliferate attack with curses and perhaps elemental equilibrium. The problem with that type of attack is when you get to curse resistant bosses where only 30% of your curse is applied, or on curse immune mobs that are resistant. Igniting fire attacks, while tremendously powerful on weak mobs, are highly inconsistent on tough mobs. So while frenzy is the stronger dps skill on weak mobs, using puncture, combined with frenzy on a boss increases my dps substantially, and quite reliably. Your culler will be pleased that the boss will have its HP drop steadily and predictably.

Would I use this ability with LMP/GMP, and fork/chain? No, because many other skills can outshine it. Could it be used with a 1h+shield combined with other skills and used with melee splash? How long does your trash really live anyway? To me this is a single target skill, but maybe if you wanted to take dot talents and cycle this with viper strike. The problem is that this skill does not proliferate like burning damage does, and how far is your melee splash going to hit anyway?

Just my two cents. I would use it with a bow or 1h+shield, on a single target, combined with other skills, then I would have a separate AoE skill. The thing about a bow is you can have multiple attacks that have more than just a 4L if you want something other than a build that uses a koam's heart.

My talent tree at level 82 if you are curious. You can probably build this as a ranger just as well. I just happened to have a dualist that was a level 74 with a build that I abandoned and wasn't being used.



Don't use Mind Over Matter if you don't want to. This is just an experiment for me, but the general idea is sound. There are 7 frenzy charges you can get and with the boots thats 7% life regen over the 4.5% that is passive in the tree. I haven't taken the 7th frenzy charge yet.

Oh and if you are wondering why I have empower linked with rain of arrows, its because I "borrowed" this lioneye's from a level 85 templar that I stopped playing and I don't want to ruin the chromatics because its hard to get back. The empower is for puncture.

Puncture + life leech + phys proj dmg + crit multiplier + inc crit strikes + empower or increased accuracy

That's the gem priority.

The level 74 toon that I hijacked to change to this build used the bandit choices - help oak (+40 life) - help oak (+phys dmg%) - help kraityn (frenzy charge)

Conclusion: I don't spam puncture on every mob because it's not that kind of ability. But on a boss that is moving, that you won't have 100% dps uptime on anyway, I prefer having the ability over not having the ability in my rotation. The dps is consistent, reliable, and won't destroy you with reflect, though the 6+ crit multiplier crits hurt against 18% reflect and vulnerability, that's for sure.

Having mana leech based on %phys dmg on your gear = useful.

For AoE: use frenzy and rain of arrows
For single target: use frenzy and puncture

Remaining Priority
Frenzy + life leech + proj phys dmg + PCoC + increased accuracy + crit dmg
Rain of arrows + life leech + conc effect + increased crit strikes + increased crit dmg + inc accuracy

Auras
Clarity on life
Grace on mana

I also have a split arrow + proj phys dmg + ranged att totem + blind that is useful in parties combined with my "calculated" armor of 20% and my "calculated" evasion of 45%, though that is your choice. I also use enduring cry + molten shell + CoDT + empower?. (not sure yet) It's not a ZOMFG amazing build, but there are worse ones out there.

I am using this bow (don't mind the gems here, don't use them, just for leveling or too lazy to take them out) for puncture + PoC + Faster Projectiles + Culling strike as main attack. (Split arrow + knockback + chance to flee +faster attack as second attack for crowd control).

I am playing selffound, so that is the kind of improvised result for my lv 72 ranger... puncture dropped not until act 2 merc, before I use PA (which sucks pretty much btw.). However the damage if you get a critical is enough for 69 maps even with just 4L... would not surprise me if puncture gets nerfed some day.

Does someone know if Physical Damage with Bows applies to Puncture damage?