New orb to fix non-viable builds that die a lot

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Incompetent wrote:

Not unless there's some way to reverse the effect when GGG changes the game balance (or just improves game performance) and suddenly life-stacking isn't so popular any more.

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VideoGeemer wrote:

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gonzaw wrote:

Then why is nobody doing that and they keep complaining that the game is "broken" and their build "shit" and say they want a full respec and they give up and delete the char and maybe throw a tantrum and quit the game altogether, etc?

Because they want it to be easier. That's all.

There will always be those who will flip out over the thought that they can't just respec. But this game cannot go that route, or its longevity would be shot. It sucks that some players won't like PoE, but GGG has to count on those of us who *do* like it, and to make a game that we can still play in 5 years. Full respec would go quite a long way to destroying that, as we could just spec any way we wanted, for any battle or situation, with no consequence. The fact that we have to reroll or farm for orbs means that we still have to keep playing the game after we get to high levels. Even a periodic (oce every 2 months or so) respec option would mean that players would decide to wait, and lose interest in the mean time.

D2 didn't have respec and it did fine. And as it is, when GGG has made drastic changes to the tree, they've given respecs. Not that this happens very often (nor should it), but it has happened.

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For other people you'd need like 20 respec points maybe just to get to a single 8% life node.

This doesn't solve the problem, evidenced by the fact that it's already a mechanic from the game....and there is still a problem

Yeah, but one life node is never going to make the difference between viability and a crappy build. It would more likely be that somebody invested several points to get a certain skill a bit further away on the tree, that turned out to be useless to them.

And I know, that's a legitimate issue. But all GGG can do about it is what they already have, by making the orbs accessible. 20 wouldn't be that hard to get for a high-level player. A few drop on their own, and the rest can be bought by trading in lower-level orbs...

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AceNightfire wrote:

I don't like it. What about energy based builds? What about builds that go mainly for defensive stats like armour and evasion and don't have much life? Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

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Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

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And if I would design an orb like this, I would do it like this, that you can only use it up to 10 times. Everytime you consume one orb, you get a big bonus to life, armour, evasion and energy shield (like +30% for all those stats) for like 2 hours. That means, you can use this buff to a maximum up to 20 hours, after this you can't use that orb anymore with your character.

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Furthermore I would limit the use just for players below lvl 60. I wouldn't like to see endgame characters using that orb to kill a certain boss. And this orb would be really rare (but it won't be to expensive, because endgame characters can't use it anyway).

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gonzaw wrote:

Wall of Text over here:

Full respec is a no to me. I agree it doesn't make much sense to just allow you to create a 100% different build in an instant, and like some people said nobody will even care about creating a build and leveling it, they will just reach a high level as soon as possible, then full-respec into the build they want.


Still, there seems to be a problem with the "shitty builds". You go all game thinking your build is cool and fun, and in an instant it becomes shitty and everybody one-shots you. Your char is useless and you must (basically) re-roll.

Now, I haven't arrived there yet (Still A1 Cruel), but considering everybody else's experiences that is a pretty bad problem.

So, what is the problem itself simplified?
You decide to go through path X until you arrive at point Y. When you arrive at point Y, you realize you are in a dead end, and can't backtrack to keep going.

So how do you solve this? I see 2 ways:
1)Allow people to know that Y is a dead-end before they reach Y, so they can slightly change their path X to avoid said dead-end
2)Once they reach dead-end in point Y, allow them to, with time and effort, overcome that dead-end in order to continue

1) Basically let players know their build is "bad" and they'll get instantly killed later in the game much much earlier. Make them know that at a time where they still have an impact to try and avoid said "dead-end".
Most of the time leveling up is done in Normal (you get 30+ levels there). Normal would be a good time to make people know if their build "sucks" or not. If not make Cruel that one. However you level up slower in Cruel so you may not change stuff that much.

2) Basically, if you see you get one-shot all of the time, then allow players to overcome that.
How? By gaining more levels and finding more loot.
Basically, if they see that in a certain stage X they die a lot, let them "grind" in stage X-1. Make it possible so that if they grind enough, they will be able to go through stage X without dying.
If you took few life nodes in your PST, then this is basically impossible unless those life nodes are conveniently in your path and you can instantly get them as you level up.
If in late-game you find you die a lot, then you won't be able to level up 10 levels to get all the necessary life nodes, etc.
Your only salvation is finding a "+1000 to Maximum Life" gear lol.

So, assuming you would only be able to gain 3-4 more levels before getting bored to death (in that X-1 stage I was talking about), then these 3-4 levels should be enough for said player to keep surviving.
Any loot said player gets when he's grinding there should be enough as well.

I guess Diablo 2 could be an example of this. If in Diablo 2 you see yourself get one-shot because you have little health, then you can grind and level up 2-4 times.
However, you know you need health ASAP, so what do you do? You put ALL your points into Vitality (instead of putting into Strength and the like).
After leveling up a little, you will have considerable amount of health, thus be able to survive.
What does this mean? It means that you can play "normally" (put points into Strength/Mana/etc), and you won't see any significant impact; but if the need arises, you can enter a "desperate" situation with a "desperate" solution, but it should still work (even if it may not be the best for you in the long-run, for instance by not getting those Strenght/etc points you wasted on Vitality).

It makes sense and it's how things tend to work in nature.
For instance, right now all your organs are functioning fine, and you are fine.
However, if you get stranded in Antartica, you'll get pretty cold. If all your organs/muscles/etc function in the same way, you will die VERY FAST. However, your body shuts down other "unnecessary" parts of your body to give you enough heat to at least survive a couple of more hours/days.
This is a "desperate" solution made by your body for a "desperate" situation.
Now, if we assume your organs functioning correctly represents you "crafting your build", and you living represents you not hitting a dead end with a "shitty build", then my point becomes clear.


I'm not saying there should be more base-life per level and a choice to "level up life", but that would (maybe I'm not entirely sure) solve the problem.
If that doesn't work, then change stuff about the game/Passive Skill Tree:
-Change the dependency on life nodes and make people get life easier in other ways
-Make mobs hit for less damage, and don't allow some mobs to one-shot people (don't make them stack damage mods, etc)
-Change the way players interact with the PST so they have more chances to get those life nodes easily when they need them ASAP.
Making Orbs of Regret drop more often could help; maybe change the PST mechanic entirely, maybe include new orbs that give you passive points, or let you teleport to the nearest life-node, or something.

Maybe have some specific rare orbs that when used permanently give you more maximum life? If you farm a specific place long enough you'll get 4-5 of those orbs, thus get enough life to survive the next stage.
Maybe make it so the drop rate of those orbs is exponential if you grind in a single place (basically if you stay in a single place and not go anywhere else).
With this mechanic, normal players that go from stage to stage won't see any of these orbs (or 1 or 2 per act, something like that).
However, players that are stuck, thus can only grind on the same place, will see more and more of these orbs as time passes.
What does this mean? It means that these new "life orbs" will basically only help people that hit a dead-end with a "nonviable" build, which is what we want (we don't want normal people getting 10000 of these orbs and coasting through the game. If they grind the same place over and over they would technically get all these orbs, but they would need to waste a lot of time and effort and won't advance in the game at all)
Again, "desperate" solution for a "desperate" problem.

You want there to be a "downside" for these new "life orbs"? Then feel free to give negative stuff to them.
Again, when you are in Antartica your liver stops working so you don't freeze to death.
You may end up surviving (gain enough life in our case), but on the expense of your other organs functioning properly, and maybe have permanent damage in the future.
If we go by this same analogy, then we can give these orbs a downside, that way they are only used by desperate people in desperate situations (I mean, it doesn't make sense for your body to shut down your liver any time it pleases him doesn't it? Then it shouldn't make much sense to use these "life orbs" when you have no problems with your build).

For instance, they could be like this:
Aid Orb:
Gives you +15% Maximum Life
Gives you -10% Maximum Mana, -3% Attack Speed, -5% Elemental Damage, -5% Physical Damage, -3% Movement Speed
Right click this item to apply it.
Every 30 minutes you don't go into new areas, the chances to drop this orb doubles (time spent in town doesn't count).

Would the above be a viable solution?


If not, we can keep discussing and bring in new ideas.

People seem to just give 2 solutions for the whole "nonviable" build problem:
1)Deal with it
2)I want a Full PST Respec

Both of these seem a little extreme to me and either don't solve the problem at all, or endanger other parts of gameplay and may bring even more problems in other areas.
I propose we try to come up with ideas that are not those two.

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gonzaw wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

I don't like it. What about energy based builds? What about builds that go mainly for defensive stats like armour and evasion and don't have much life? Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

Unless they take CI those energy based builds still need life. If they get killed a lot, then a boost to life will improve their survivability.
Also I've never seen someone say "I have too low ES and mobs kill me!", they always say "I have too low life and mobs kill me!", no matter their build.

I think catering to those people is enough. If someone takes CI they are fully responsible for what happens with it. And in the worst case scenario they just respec CI and problem solved (you can respec Keystones right?)

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gonzaw wrote:

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Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

Like I said before, choose any number you want, as long as it increases life.

Make it reduce cast speed, attack speed, damage if you want, or maybe mana as well so it "hurts" the guy (but at least he won't get one-shotted).

Also yeah, decreasing some of those stuff will make the game harder for him, and harder in the long run specially...but at least he'll be able to play those parts, which he wouldn't have otherwise because he gets one-shotted all the time (or nearly one-shotted if he's in HC)

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gonzaw wrote:

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And if I would design an orb like this, I would do it like this, that you can only use it up to 10 times. Everytime you consume one orb, you get a big bonus to life, armour, evasion and energy shield (like +30% for all those stats) for like 2 hours. That means, you can use this buff to a maximum up to 20 hours, after this you can't use that orb anymore with your character.

That could work, but what about after that? After you use the orb and its duration ends, you'll be in an even higher level zone with even less survivability than before. If you didn't die before you will certainly die now
That doesn't solve the problem IMO

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gonzaw wrote:

Also there's no downside to it. "Normal" players will use it too. I don't want that, it can make the game imbalanced and shit.

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gonzaw wrote:

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Furthermore I would limit the use just for players below lvl 60. I wouldn't like to see endgame characters using that orb to kill a certain boss. And this orb would be really rare (but it won't be to expensive, because endgame characters can't use it anyway).

Do you think a high level character would want his attack speed, cast speed, mana, elem damage, phys damage, etc permanently reduced just to kill one boss?

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AceNightfire wrote:

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gonzaw wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

I don't like it. What about energy based builds? What about builds that go mainly for defensive stats like armour and evasion and don't have much life? Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

Unless they take CI those energy based builds still need life. If they get killed a lot, then a boost to life will improve their survivability.
Also I've never seen someone say "I have too low ES and mobs kill me!", they always say "I have too low life and mobs kill me!", no matter their build.

I think catering to those people is enough. If someone takes CI they are fully responsible for what happens with it. And in the worst case scenario they just respec CI and problem solved (you can respec Keystones right?)

Rofl, the argument "if they take..." is like saying "if others don't get life nodes they are full responsible". That would apply for every glass cannon build and not just ES based builds...

I see, you only think about yourself, but not about others. Not everyone plays a life based build.

And dude, people with much strength and life nodes benefit more from your suggestion then all the other builds that are based on other stats. Your idea sux like it is now, cause only a handful of people will benefit from it, while all the others are "wtf, why I don't get an orb that helps me??"

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gonzaw wrote:

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Why reduce mana? Not being able to perform your skills because of the lack of mana can be deadly too...?

Like I said before, choose any number you want, as long as it increases life.

Make it reduce cast speed, attack speed, damage if you want, or maybe mana as well so it "hurts" the guy (but at least he won't get one-shotted).

Also yeah, decreasing some of those stuff will make the game harder for him, and harder in the long run specially...but at least he'll be able to play those parts, which he wouldn't have otherwise because he gets one-shotted all the time (or nearly one-shotted if he's in HC)

Your idea does not help at all. Redcuing mana and all the other attack based stats will actually REDUCE the survivability. Not being able to kill your foes (fast enough) will result in many foes hitting you at the same time. So why should 15% more life help at all?

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gonzaw wrote:

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And if I would design an orb like this, I would do it like this, that you can only use it up to 10 times. Everytime you consume one orb, you get a big bonus to life, armour, evasion and energy shield (like +30% for all those stats) for like 2 hours. That means, you can use this buff to a maximum up to 20 hours, after this you can't use that orb anymore with your character.

That could work, but what about after that? After you use the orb and its duration ends, you'll be in an even higher level zone with even less survivability than before. If you didn't die before you will certainly die now
That doesn't solve the problem IMO

If you can't manage to make a build that can handle enemies after 30 hours of gameplay (I assume that the first 10 hours you can do without this orbs), then your build isn't worth playing. In my opinion such an orb should only help a player to reach a certain level until he can fight without using the orb. If he can't manage it, then he should try a completely new build.

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DoubleSmiggins wrote:

Why not do something like this?

Aid Orb:
- Reduce damage taken by 10-20%
- Decrease debuff duration by 50%
- Decrease item rarity by 50% and item quantity by 30%
- Wears off when you gain a level
- Cannot be traded

Some people are hitting walls where they can't advance because they keep dying and losing their EXP. By giving them some boosted defences (reducing all incoming damage helps any build, and reducing the debuff durations will also help in some very dangerous areas), and it wearing off once you gain a level marks a spot, "Right, I'm done with this area, here's the level to prove it, I can advance now." But there's got to be some kind of penalty. Reducing combat effectiveness could negate all the advantage of the damage reduction, but item rarity and quantity? It may hamper a person getting the new gear they probably need, but this forces you to weigh it up; it can't just be an all gain without any pain, and a lack of items doesn't stop you from advancing in the short term, which is what this orb seems to be supposed to cover.

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gonzaw wrote:

I would say most people in this forum would agree that "Life is King" or some shit.
You may have a different opinion, you may think life is just an "accessory" that only "life builds" use, but I'd say you are wrong then.

If that's the case, then almost everybody would "benefit" from it.
And "benefit" in the loosest sense of the word, since they would get a lot of negative stats decrease with it.

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gonzaw wrote:

As an easy example, think of all those glass cannon builds. THey have lots of DPS but get one-shot, etc.
Reducing their DPS a little so they can at least barely survive doesn't seem like a "game-breaking" experience.

After they use the orb, it's responsibility of the player to know how it affected his build. He can easily go farm and get better weapons/gear to increase his DPS, or just "suck it up" and play more carefully.
Or....the negative impacts can be "tweaked" a little bit, so it's balanced

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gonzaw wrote:

Then you missed the problem entirely.

Also, it's obvious what "normal players" means in context

Please read my post above (the one inside the quotes). You seem to be misinterpreting the principle of what I'm suggesting

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There shouldn't be items ingame that can only be used by some people only because they messed up their build or were going for a complete glass cannon build