It's time for preleveled/preascended characters to enter the shop or be made available somehow.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Albinosaurus wrote:

@Khalixxa

This is a false dichotomy fallacy.

If it's a false fallacy, then it's true, right ?
gg

He has a valid point there, you do not bring anything, might care developping your point of view ? ( for a change, I could be surprised I guess but I'm not expecting it ).

You think it's true because it's fallacious? Seriously? He has not made any valid point at all. It's possible for GGG to both improve the leveling system and allow people to just bypass it altogether. It's possible they will do neither. One does not preclude the other. That is a false dichotomy.

"

The thing is compromising for the sake of trying to appease all parties never leads to the intended affects, it leads to a stale product that "neither side" enjoys.

It's actually the opposite. An unwillingness to compromise and appease as many people as you can has the effect you described. As Fruz stated, you cannot satisfy 100% of people, but look around the forums and you will see a lot of people who have various issues with the game. Not all of them are correct. Some of them are just whine. But this suggestion has been defended very thoroughly, for those who actually read it, so there's plenty of legitimacy to take it above those dismissive categories. I know a few of you don't like it, but that doesn't make it less legitimate. At least be honest about it, though, and just say it like it is: you don't like it.

Also...

"

Like, I can think of two reasons why GGG has not posted here

That's all it is. Speculation. GGG has not posted, so you may not speak for them.

"

It is an abuse, because there is money involved in it.

This nonsense again? I don't have to argue this. You're just ignoring the argument so you can straw man it.

"

For example, if you were to trade 50 chaos to get boosted to 60 by your level 80 buddy, that would not be an abuse, it'd be a service.

"

Like, right now we have respec bandits for 20 regrets. Maybe we can do level 60 pre-ascended character of your choice for 60 regrets. This would basically make things about the way they are now and save people who hate leveling from having to level.

This is actually a decent idea. As for people using RMT to do whatever with it, that's against the ToS so you can't really use that as a reason for legit players to not have it. People who RMT already risk getting banned without notice. But if even they didn't, it's still a good currency sink, like you said. Kind of hard to argue with the benefits there--the cost of pre-leveled characters offsetting whatever imagined economic advantage they would have over lvl 1 starts. More than offsetting it actually, most characters don't make 50-60c on their way to level 60.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

[...]

The point is what it would imply to do it, not if they do it or not ......
The other part was to expect.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

That's all it is. Speculation. GGG has not posted, so you may not speak for them.

Of course, because you don't do speculations, and nobody else does on this forum either.
this is a nice /facepalm occasion
One more time : no argument, no content, a hollow answer, empty, boring but expected.

Right. My comments have no content because they are defended by reason while your assumptions do have content. Makes sense, I'm sure.

Precisely ( or you have reading problems )

"

I kinda feel your point there, but you will need to explain it to convince peopel ( if you care to ).
It's impossible to please all parties anyway, those guys ( not all, granted ) always QQing in the feedback section will always find something to QQ about ( and there will always be room for improvment, so room for suggestions, however most of them .... are not great to say the least ).

Like, I can think of two reasons why GGG has not posted here :
- They are not sure of what to do ( seriously doubt it )
- They are sure that they do not want this to be implemented ( most likely imho ), and they don't say it because why would they make some potential customers eventually leave by telling them "no, we won't do this" ? It's better for GGG to let them speculate and hope, they will potentially play the game longer.

GGG doesn't really post on topics here for multiple reasons, as stated in threads like the lack of GGG participation or what have you.

They've said responding here essentially just creates problems, instead of fixing them. It denies people, which IMO isn't necessarily a bad thing, hope that whatever change they want isn't going to happen. The other part is things change so while this topic started off about preleveled characters for sale. Its no evolved into perhaps having a prelevled character be something you could earn as well.

Not only that, if they do know a change is being done, revealing it can lead to issues as well, such as why can't they just implement it now, why can't it be this instead of that. The number of problem to arise is best dealt with at once, rather then getting feedback and having to do more work. That being said I would like GGG to use their alpha testers more, it seems like a lot of things go relatively unnoticed or caught that would have been from external testers.

"

It's actually the opposite. An unwillingness to compromise and appease as many people as you can has the effect you described. As Fruz stated, you cannot satisfy 100% of people, but look around the forums and you will see a lot of people who have various issues with the game. Not all of them are correct. Some of them are just whine. But this suggestion has been defended very thoroughly, for those who actually read it, so there's plenty of legitimacy to take it above those dismissive categories. I know a few of you don't like it, but that doesn't make it less legitimate. At least be honest about it, though, and just say it like it is: you don't like it.

No that statement is true all of the time. Look at it like a scale 1-10, with players occupying it in various ways. Lets say GGG implements this or any suggestion various people will move on the scale in respects to if they like the change or not, some changes won't have very much effect at all, but larger ones typically do.

Lets consider a larger change, like OP's original topic, players like myself are extremely against it because it completely goes against their model of mtx's, something I've supported them generously for not doing. A change like that might move you up some peggs, but drastically reduces my pegs, moreso then whatever it is going to increase for you more then likely. This means we are both "content" with the game, but neither of us are excited. This creates a bad gaming experience, Chris himself said you can't just compromise just to try to appease all parties. The best indication of something that can be changed without affecting pegs that much, is like removing the need to do subsequent trials on characters in a league, even someone like myself that enjoys the lab, likes that change, people that hated the lab, like the change as well. That essentially creates no real "compromise" because there wasn't anyone saying we need to do it per each character (im sure there were people but i dont recall)

Your playstyle you are trying to push GGG to make a change for is super niche, I can't think of a single ARPG game that caters to such a request like you are asking for here.


And yes @leg, says me.

"

Your playstyle you are trying to push GGG to make a change for is super niche, I can't think of a single ARPG game that caters to such a request like you are asking for here.

-Torchlight 2 (with mod support): maps as alternate leveling, mods that increase exp gains, mods that increase monster pack size/quality, etc
-Diablo 3: Gem of Ease, Rifts and Bounties as alternate leveling, Kanai powers that enhance leveling (Leoric's Signet, Leoric's Crown + Ruby), etc
-D&D Online (not an ARPG, but still applies): Start characters at higher level as a paid for function--something I had on my account before I quit--experience tomes, experience potions, subscription bonus to exp, not trapped in a linear progression, etc
-Diablo 2 had people rushing other people and then power-leveling them. Not technically the same thing, but close enough. Most people just skipped the early/mid game to play their late game builds on new characters.

Your assumption that it's niche is cute too, since you have no data to back that up. Even if it is, that doesn't make it less valid. Just as with Lab, you still could go through all the trials on all your characters, but you enjoy not having to. I suspect that even being against this feature (supposedly), you would really enjoy using it. And if not? Then don't. It's optional.

"

Albinosaurus wrote:

"

Your playstyle you are trying to push GGG to make a change for is super niche, I can't think of a single ARPG game that caters to such a request like you are asking for here.

-Torchlight 2 (with mod support): maps as alternate leveling, mods that increase exp gains, mods that increase monster pack size/quality, etc
-Diablo 3: Gem of Ease, Rifts and Bounties as alternate leveling, Kanai powers that enhance leveling (Leoric's Signet, Leoric's Crown + Ruby), etc
-D&D Online (not an ARPG, but still applies): Start characters at higher level as a paid for function--something I had on my account before I quit--experience tomes, experience potions, subscription bonus to exp, not trapped in a linear progression, etc
-Diablo 2 had people rushing other people and then power-leveling them. Not technically the same thing, but close enough. Most people just skipped the early/mid game to play their late game builds on new characters.

Your assumption that it's niche is cute too, since you have no data to back that up. Even if it is, that doesn't make it less valid. Just as with Lab, you still could go through all the trials on all your characters, but you enjoy not having to. I suspect that even being against this feature (supposedly), you would really enjoy using it. And if not? Then don't. It's optional.

TL 2 is a joke of a game, you can't say it has what you want just because it has mods.

D3 has things to level because it literally has 0 character impact on the choices you make when leveling. To compare something D3 does to make it easier to level to a game like PoE is completely different. In addition to that leveling alts isn't needed as much because you are free to change whatever, whenever.

(just a reminder i'm talking about the whole fuck ton of alts you apparently have a problem with)

Not an ARPG, so no it doesn't apply.


D2, whats so much different then having someone rush you in PoE. While you eventually will have to kill monsters to progress, you can make it to merciless being like 35 or something. So if you have someone rush you thru the required quest you could just go back and kill things at your leisure.


Note that it is important that you are keeping in mind I am referring to your issue with leveling alts. Furthermore (not that there is anything wrong with your playstyle, do what you want) leveling alts typically is an indication of a builds that overall "fail" because if the builds were actually good, chances are you would play them to further completion then you are.


The data to back it up is experience with post here, people I know and from other online forums (like reddit) Is this data complete, no, but its enough to say that your playstyle is without a doubt niche and therefore less valid of an issue then you think it is.

Thinking that the feature would be optional is indeed foolish. The path of least resistance will AWLAYS be taken, if you don't you are just hurting yourself in and the process if you enjoyed something like leveling early you are left with a choice of being behind or trying to enjoy the content that people like yourself pushed to get bypassed.


This isn't an MMORPG like WoW, this is an Online ARPG game, leveling matters not only because of choices GGG gives you to make along the way, but because a well balanced character must make choices thru passive tree leveling and gearing options. You are essentially asking GGG to remove 1\3 or more of the "work" to actually create a character. Considering that streamers\meta builds do most of the other work for you, all that is left is finish leveling from 60>75\80 and slap on your items with the few chaos you made while playing the last levels and your build is done. Great idea. /s

"

TL 2 is a joke of a game, you can't say it has what you want just because it has mods.

Yes, I can. The fact that it does have mods shows that those devs cared more about the player experience than some subjective notion of balance or an arbitrary "economy." They wanted people to play the game that they want to play.

"

D3 has things to level because it literally has 0 character impact on the choices you make when leveling. To compare something D3 does to make it easier to level to a game like PoE is completely different. In addition to that leveling alts isn't needed as much because you are free to change whatever, whenever.

So you are going to knock D3's leveling for the choices not mattering while saying that this isn't needed in PoE because choices don't matter? Makes sense, yo.

"

Not an ARPG, so no it doesn't apply.

It does apply. Just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't change that. It demonstrates the exact thing you were asking for an example of. It doesn't matter if it's an ARPG, MMO, or anything else--the "niche" exists in all genres.

"

D2, whats so much different then having someone rush you in PoE. While you eventually will have to kill monsters to progress, you can make it to merciless being like 35 or something. So if you have someone rush you thru the required quest you could just go back and kill things at your leisure.

Then why not cut the crap and just let people have their fresh 60s? Either way, leveling and story progression is not important.

"

Note that it is important that you are keeping in mind I am referring to your issue with leveling alts. Furthermore (not that there is anything wrong with your playstyle, do what you want) leveling alts typically is an indication of a builds that overall "fail" because if the builds were actually good, chances are you would play them to further completion then you are.

This is simply false. I play alts because I get bored of playing just one character. This is true of any game that offers build diversity, and it's the reason I like games that do over those that don't.

"

The data to back it up is experience with post here, people I know and from other online forums (like reddit) Is this data complete, no, but its enough to say that your playstyle is without a doubt niche and therefore less valid of an issue then you think it is.

Your confirmation-biased, anecdotal "evidence" somehow invalidates my playstyle? False. That is not how logic, argumentation, or facts work. It's complete bullshit, and you know it.

"

Thinking that the feature would be optional is indeed foolish. The path of least resistance will AWLAYS be taken, if you don't you are just hurting yourself in and the process if you enjoyed something like leveling early you are left with a choice of being behind or trying to enjoy the content that people like yourself pushed to get bypassed.

What I do has no bearing on what you enjoy. If you really like the leveling process, don't use the feature. It's that simple. Worrying about "keeping up with the Joneses" is not a healthy attitude anyway. Besides that, the many options discussed about what requirements would need to be fulfilled to even unlock it necessarily means that you are not left behind at all. You will have at least one character who is well ahead of that other guy's fresh level 60.

"

This isn't an MMORPG like WoW, this is an Online ARPG game, leveling matters not only because of choices GGG gives you to make along the way, but because a well balanced character must make choices thru passive tree leveling and gearing options. You are essentially asking GGG to remove 1\3 or more of the "work" to actually create a character. Considering that streamers\meta builds do most of the other work for you, all that is left is finish leveling from 60>75\80 and slap on your items with the few chaos you made while playing the last levels and your build is done. Great idea.

In the first place, streamers already have guides that do 100% of this work (other than playing the character) for you, so that's already moot. Secondly, it doesn't matter what genre it is. That's like the "it's the year xxxx" argument. It has nothing to do with anything. Thirdly, you already admitted that those "important choices" are actually not important, so there's nothing really left to argue.

"

Yes, I can. The fact that it does have mods shows that those devs cared more about the player experience than some subjective notion of balance or an arbitrary "economy." They wanted people to play the game that they want to play.

Poe is THE game designed to be the one they wanted to play (GGG, Chris and the rest of the founding company) So to make that statement is quite funny, secondly GGG's business model is different, they cannot allow mods for many many reasons, if you can't see those reasons, well I can't discuss the point with you further. Its much more then an economy that PoE remains an online only game, almost every large game, especially ones with player interaction require online only.

"

So you are going to knock D3's leveling for the choices not mattering while saying that this isn't needed in PoE because choices don't matter? Makes sense, yo.

You need to read what I said again. I said choices in PoE matter, choices in D3 don't so expedited leveling in D3 doesn't matter one bit.

"

It does apply. Just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't change that. It demonstrates the exact thing you were asking for an example of. It doesn't matter if it's an ARPG, MMO, or anything else--the "niche" exists in all genres.

Because that is a completely different thing. Its like comparing hot dog to salad. WTF are you going to do in a comparison with that?

"

Then why not cut the crap and just let people have their fresh 60s? Either way, leveling and story progression is not important.

Thats fine, start with your character, but lose out on skill points and quest rewards you missed by starting with the level 60 character. You view it as crap because you somehow level a bunch of characters to like mid 50's and quit, much character progression, such wow.

"

This is simply false. I play alts because I get bored of playing just one character. This is true of any game that offers build diversity, and it's the reason I like games that do over those that don't.

Yeah ok, thats why you likely have never step foot inside of a single red map or done anything more then just yellow maps, hell I doubt you've even done the higher end yellow maps. Its simply because (more then likely) your builds suck.

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Your confirmation-biased, anecdotal "evidence" somehow invalidates my playstyle? False. That is not how logic, argumentation, or facts work. It's complete bullshit, and you know it.

Find people that play the way you do and get them to speak here, because its just you that has an issue leveling so many characters, basically everyone else that is supporting your quest just wants an easier time for themselves, its not like they level that many characters a league.

"

What I do has no bearing on what you enjoy. If you really like the leveling process, don't use the feature. It's that simple. Worrying about "keeping up with the Joneses" is not a healthy attitude anyway. Besides that, the many options discussed about what requirements would need to be fulfilled to even unlock it necessarily means that you are not left behind at all. You will have at least one character who is well ahead of that other guy's fresh level 60.

Except changes to the game do have a bearing on what I get to enjoy. Its not as simple as that and you fucking know it, not sure why you are pretending like a feature that is a "speed boost" is anything but required. Unless you HAVE TO BE a free player, people do that shit in WoW as well because again, leveling in that game doesn't matter, you just want endgame, but that isn't the case for PoE, with the choices they give you to make.

The level all 7 classes to whatever thing is just bullshit and you know it. No one fucking levels all 7 classes in temp leagues, where you know the game is balanced for and where 80% or more of the population plays. Give me a fucking break.

"

In the first place, streamers already have guides that do 100% of this work (other than playing the character) for you, so that's already moot. Secondly, it doesn't matter what genre it is. That's like the "it's the year xxxx" argument. It has nothing to do with anything. Thirdly, you already admitted that those "important choices" are actually not important, so there's nothing really left to argue.

I never admitted they weren't important, you more then likely read incorrectly because of your frustration. If I indeed did say they weren't important, that wasn't what I meant to say (and it should have been clear with context clues), but I doubt I did anyway.

So making it even easier to play a character is fine. Hell why not just make all mobs 1hp, I mean you are going to kill them anyway right?

It absolutely and always does matter what genre when you bring other games into the discussion, what "works" for one doesn't work for others in many many cases.

Regardless I feel like I've wasted enough of my time responding to this thread, hopefully some more interesting and more important post get attention instead of this post, which 99.999999999999 won't fucking happen.

I should have known better than to expect something other than raw fallacy and personal attacks from you. Your arguments are hollow as shit, and are just like Fruz' empty posts. Then you go and backtrack on what you said. I'm not impressed. Try again.

P.S.
I've already debunked every one of those points.