Nerf life nodes... while boosting base life so life itself isn't nerfed

edughizzo, your example is a little unrealistic. For the life-stacking build, it would probably look a little more like this...

Base HP: 1000 (50 starting, 420 levels, 190 Strength, 340 gear)
More HP with life nodes: 300%
Life gained with nodes: 3000
Final HP: 4000.
-
Base HP: 1600 (40 starting, 840 levels, 380 Strength, 340 gear)
More hp with life nodes: 150%
Life gained with nodes: 2400
Final HP: 4000, no change.

...but we'd also have this...

More HP with life nodes: 200%
Life gained with nodes: 2000
Final HP: 3000.
-
More hp with life nodes: 100%
Life gained with nodes: 1600
Final HP: 3200, 7% better.

...and this...

More HP with life nodes: 100%
Life gained with nodes: 1000
Final HP: 2000.
-
More hp with life nodes: 50%
Life gained with nodes: 800
Final HP: 2400, 20% better.

I understand that this isn't the most earth-shattering change in the world. Really I'm just trying to provide a moderate buff to builds that don't stack life nodes (or at least don't stack quite so many), so that maybe they have more of a chance to compete.

Here's another way of thinking about it: assume you average 9% life per life node under the current system. That would mean 11 passive points between each of the examples above. Under the current system, you're gaining 1000 life per 11 points, about 91 per node; you start at 1000. Under my suggestion, it would be 800 life per 11 points, about 73 per node, but have 1600 to start.

Life/ES should be regarded as a buffer, not as a defense. When you look at it this way, the defenses are fine and don't need much tweaking.

Evasion by it's very nature will eventually lead to you taking a hit. When this happens you want a moderate to large buffer.

Armor, due to damage scaling, cannot protect you from some very large hits you will take in the endgame. Again, when you take a hit you will want a buffer, preferably large in this case because of the multitude of hits.

Block is pretty powerful, but requires point investment and possibly foregoing evasion for maximum efficiency, as well as facing the same issue as evasion.

Resists goes without saying, we all cap it since there is no other reliable protection from spells and elemental damage sources.

You simply cannot bury damage scaling deep down. In the endgame there is massive friggin' damage. The only way to survive is to pick one of the above defenses plus resists, and then maximize your buffer. I don't see something inherently wrong with being forced to spec defensively like this though. But I agree that it probably needs to be toned down a little, or tweaked to make a character relying on reflexes and a lower than maximized health pool more viable.

To increase build diversity, mechanics for chaos damage, ES and CI should be looked over instead IMO. But that is a different thread. :)

I like the idea and the thinking behind it. Also: it wouldn't make defenses useless, it would just make energy shield, evasion and armor more viable because right now, evasion is just useless, and energy shield is crap compared to life stacking.

This change would just encourage build diversity and altho doubleing hp/lvl is a bit much for my taste, it could be tweaked out.

I guess players are progressing way too quickly anyway, if they would just half the life nodes or reduce them to some extend (say for 70% or something) players wouldn't be forced to take them and waste 50+ passive points in them since it wouldn't matter so much.

The downside is:

-if they reduce it just a little: players would just need to grab more life nodes, that's bad
-if they reduce it too much: players would never take any life nodes

The latter is especially true when you double the hp/lvl amount. They could just half the passive nodes and see how that goes. This is open beta anyway, this is the time to test things out.

So much +1 for this idea. Melee needs some love and most suggestions about life just punishes melee even more or makes life useless. This suggestion is just a win in every aspect, while life is still very good for melee users, it has it's small drawbacks for other (non str) classes. And it's quite easy to implement too, so GGG should really think about this one.

I can hear the life-rangers already cry when this comes :D

@ScrotieMcB

I really like ure idea's and changes, but have u considered another creative option to suport melee,
this is what i could come up with in 5 seconds :) hope it represents the creative part i mean that could be added to treedesign.

There could be a new form a life nodes that replace the current ones, these could be better for melee and worse for ranged(not BAD, just worse)

a new life node could be called = A way of life (could be a major keynote in a 4 nodes hp bundle i imagine to ensure its power)

This bigger node "A way of life" could add let say the small life nodes ad 4%hp, then this one could add 12%hp when using a melee weapon, and 6%hp when equiping a ranged weapon.

This way u would stil have the same calculations as u are creating, but u are adding a ninja buff to melee tank's, some rangers might stil wanna take this, but i would clearly be maximized for a melee char.

Im not sure if this is on-topic, but i was reading ure post and comming up with solutions to buff melee without nerfing ranged, ure sugestion already doe's this quite effectively, but leaving some of the high value life nodes for "melee users" only would not harm build diversity, it would represent a clear choice to go for a meatshield. I strongly believe the melee skilltree's needs some nodes that only take effect when equiping melee weapon, it would discourage rangers going to those tree's just for the clear buffs, and in return give more build diversity.

Hope u could incorporate this idee in ure thought, ore reply why this isent viable, as i state in all my post's im not lategame yet so i dont know the lategame math's involved, but i think a post that is about life nodes should consider keeping life nodes value for melee users the same while nerfing the use of them for ranged chars.(maybe just buffing for melee and staying the same for ranged is a better option since GGG hates nerf's :))

If i could for example with my melee chars use just 4 skill points to get the same hp% bonus then i could now get for 6/7 points, i would have some nice points left to put in great defense bonuses like block chance ore armor, wich in return would grand more ehp to my character, i would stil be able to stack HP but maybe defensive value's would start to play a higher role for ehp value's, and endgame builds woulden't just mather about hp stacking anymore.

Hope this was sort of on-topic and like always
GG(g) on and gl hf all.

Nice suggestion Boem. I would suggest 8% for ranged characters and 12% for melees, because 6% sound really less for a keynode, but those extra 4% for melees and the strength they have makes them better tanks as ranged characters. Really creative without overpowering oneclass or nerfing the other class in any way.

ow the ongoing life issues in this game

i pretty much disagree with the OP.. i don't think they should nerf the life nodes at all, BUT i do however agree that they should double the amount of life gained per level, that way you WOULDN'T actually have to take as MANy life nodes so you can put some more offensive options into your builds....

The way the OP has it would mean essentially you would STILL have to take JUSt as many life nodes as before because his suggestions just cancel each other out so nothing is really changed.

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Boem wrote:

a new life node could be called = A way of life (could be a major keynote in a 4 nodes hp bundle i imagine to ensure its power)

This bigger node "A way of life" could add let say the small life nodes ad 4%hp, then this one could add 12%hp when using a melee weapon, and 6%hp when equiping a ranged weapon.

If the line between melee and ranged were that clear-cut, this might be a good suggestion. But it's not clear cut at all; skills like Lightning Strike, which fires projectiles and uses a melee weapon, exist and are frequently used. Your suggestion would just make those builds stronger without really fixing the problem.

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omfgvexer wrote:

i pretty much disagree with the OP.. i don't think they should nerf the life nodes at all, BUT i do however agree that they should double the amount of life gained per level, that way you WOULDN'T actually have to take as MANy life nodes so you can put some more offensive options into your builds....

The problem is not people taking only life nodes because they need them to survive... well, not the main problem anyway. The problem is people taking only life nodes after they already have enough health to survive, because the extra "luxury survivability" is better than the damage. If we don't actually nerf life nodes, the game might become easier, but passive builds wouldn't change very much.

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omfgvexer wrote:

The way the OP has it would mean essentially you would STILL have to take JUSt as many life nodes as before because his suggestions just cancel each other out so nothing is really changed.

If you mean you'd have to achieve survivability somehow, then yes; with very good life affixes on gear, this might mean a lot less life nodes than you think. However, once a player got that survivability, they'd be much more inclined to pursue other options rather than continuing to stack life nodes.

well - to put it very simple

this would be a buff to every life centered build out there - by freeing up a LOT of nodes, that could be invested in something else.

a change like this could only come with significant energy shield bonuses as well - such as a flat 4 ES per level up - which would be ridiculous tbh. the change you suggested is far too much tbh. maybe it could be done by nerfing the nodes by 20% - not 50% - and buffing lifegains in turn by 20% - again, not 50%. (still not a good idea without buffing ES as well)

a 50% shift is too intrusive for game balance - literally noone would go for ES builds anymore - noone would go for CI anymore - if you just get that red lifepool for free. i know it would help CI with status effects - but you would just loose too much.

i guess what i'm saying is - a buff to life (which it is, name it nerfing the nodes or whatever, but what you're suggesting is buffing life) can only go along with buffing ES.
so in consequence, suggesting a buff to life can only go along with suggesting a buff to ES.