Skill Reveal: Sunder

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I_NO wrote:

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ThePromise110 wrote:

Another attack that will get you instagibbed vs. reflect unless you for Phys to Lightning.

Kind of annoying, but I like it.

? Reflect has never been an issue for a very very long time right now unless there's something terribly wrong with your build.

as for this skill it's lazy like It's basically ground slam however it's a smaller version and can go further should of just named it Lesser ground slam <.<

Actually Pure Physical builds can still get destroyed by Phys Refect IF you are running Pure Physical BUT the thing is theres so many ways to convert Phys and most all of them are also ways of scaling your damage that no one runs Pure Physical. This is the ONLY reason Reflect is not an issue.

With Ele Reflect Resistance Flasks can pretty much cover whatever Leech+VP doesnt but with Phys reflect a Granite+Leech+VP will not be enough unless you are stacking lots of armour... Thus Why evasion builds that run Physical heavy skills have Reflect issues but again simply convert Phys (Which again scales your damage) and no problem.

Honestly i feel like they should do away with splitting Phys and Ele Reflect up and just make Reflect and straight forward mechanic... THEN Reflect can be tuned to not only be something we have to watch for but something we actually have to keep in mind when making our builds. As it stands right now we mitigate Reflect for the most part the exact same way we scale our damage and scale in damage in such a way where reflect with simple leech becomes non existent. which i thought was the point of reflect.. to CONTROL our damage or at the very least make us be mindful of our damage output and what damage we are doing so when we run into reflect we actually have to think and use strategy when we encounter it.

Things like the way reflect is now is exactly why the game is more and more going in the direction of Clearspeed is everything and good solid builds that are nicely balanced between offense and defense seems to be less and less what people build these days. And im not saying people are wrong for going for clearspeed either... I mean theres no reason what so ever NOT TO. Thus why i feel reflect needs to be looked at. And mechanics like Thorns should also have more prevalence as well. Thorns is actually a pretty interesting mechanic but its very seldom used at all. Maybe even start giveing mobs CODT setups.

I keep seeing people talk about nerfing things like COC and how all these OP clearspeed builds need to be nerfed when thats not the case at all... Things like Reflect and Thorns should be in place instead to keep these things in check instead IMO. And if they are used more and tuned they could tune down on ALOT of this power creep people are noticing without nerfing anything.

Just a thought. \m/

+1 this guy^

I think my Mjolner character was the only one who I had to "think" about reflect for... otherwise it is faceroll city.

Garbage... Its sloppy useless and I hate it...
/takes off the stupid hat to give his honest opinion.

HELL YEAH! A new melee skill! Loving this guys keep up the good work. I noticed you said you are adding a few melee skills? Can't wait to check them out. This was a much needed skill as we always end up having to turn our builds into spell skills for late game content and aoe damage.

Its great to see that something like this that fits melee classes is now included. Again, can't wait to check it out ;)

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Demonoz wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

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ThePromise110 wrote:

Another attack that will get you instagibbed vs. reflect unless you for Phys to Lightning.

Kind of annoying, but I like it.

? Reflect has never been an issue for a very very long time right now unless there's something terribly wrong with your build.

as for this skill it's lazy like It's basically ground slam however it's a smaller version and can go further should of just named it Lesser ground slam <.<

Actually Pure Physical builds can still get destroyed by Phys Refect IF you are running Pure Physical BUT the thing is theres so many ways to convert Phys and most all of them are also ways of scaling your damage that no one runs Pure Physical. This is the ONLY reason Reflect is not an issue.

With Ele Reflect Resistance Flasks can pretty much cover whatever Leech+VP doesnt but with Phys reflect a Granite+Leech+VP will not be enough unless you are stacking lots of armour... Thus Why evasion builds that run Physical heavy skills have Reflect issues but again simply convert Phys (Which again scales your damage) and no problem.

Honestly i feel like they should do away with splitting Phys and Ele Reflect up and just make Reflect and straight forward mechanic... THEN Reflect can be tuned to not only be something we have to watch for but something we actually have to keep in mind when making our builds. As it stands right now we mitigate Reflect for the most part the exact same way we scale our damage and scale in damage in such a way where reflect with simple leech becomes non existent. which i thought was the point of reflect.. to CONTROL our damage or at the very least make us be mindful of our damage output and what damage we are doing so when we run into reflect we actually have to think and use strategy when we encounter it.

Things like the way reflect is now is exactly why the game is more and more going in the direction of Clearspeed is everything and good solid builds that are nicely balanced between offense and defense seems to be less and less what people build these days. And im not saying people are wrong for going for clearspeed either... I mean theres no reason what so ever NOT TO. Thus why i feel reflect needs to be looked at. And mechanics like Thorns should also have more prevalence as well. Thorns is actually a pretty interesting mechanic but its very seldom used at all. Maybe even start giveing mobs CODT setups.

I keep seeing people talk about nerfing things like COC and how all these OP clearspeed builds need to be nerfed when thats not the case at all... Things like Reflect and Thorns should be in place instead to keep these things in check instead IMO. And if they are used more and tuned they could tune down on ALOT of this power creep people are noticing without nerfing anything.

Just a thought. \m/

No nerfs please. I personally see all these OP builds and get annoyed in parties that are all over the place one shooting entire maps in a couple seconds. But still, no nerfs! A game needs to be able to have this kind of crazy in it. You are spending dozens if not hundreds of hours building characters and leveling up skills and getting the right items and what not, nerfing that is simply silly.

You simply don't play with people that are making builds just for the sake of clearing out a map in 1 second. Evidently, they are people with a different taste. And a game that lets people enjoy the game in whichever way they want is a plus to the game. No-body forces us to play with them so we simply don't ^_^ I just pop in with like minded friends and we play the game as we like, or I just solo a lot too. Its all cool.

If people are concerned with PvP, well that is a different matter and a game option, not what the game is truly about imo.

Now for that whole reflection thing. Actually it is a problem. I have a phys damage life leeching dual wielding build... And it is also relatively squishy. Why? Because that's how I want it to be. That is the point to building a character in the first place, having fun with doing what you like within the character creation allowed and enjoy the game.

A game is more than just "lets collect loot" or "lets finish it and go end game". For some people its a specific experience. I want for example from time to time to have a character that reminds me of old school Conan the barbarians and what not. Simple, strong, brutes. When I play an RPG I want the character creation to reflect the character, not game mechanics.

It's not enough that for most physical damage you need to get up close to the enemy to strike, making you vulnerable, there is also a damage reflect in there that can one-shot you o.O

Think about this in terms of lore. Conan is training all his life to land the strongest swing with his sword, to basically kill himself some day when that swings damage is reflected on him o.O

Add to this that you might want a squishy build for that extra damage, and you are a "mage" with none of the advantages. Phys damage can be reflected at you, and you do not have range.

I think it should be re-worked all-together. A mechanic that reflects the damage you deal back at you is broken in terms of mechanics period. It's backward. Dealing damage to the attacker (thorns and what not) is something that makes sense and works.

I don't believe having to sit there and change your character to be something else than what you wanted them to be and make them in fact an off-warrior that uses spells and what not is a good thing at all. I also want my damage on those characters to be non-elemental. It simply fits the character like I said I am into RP'ing and love the character creation making sense with the character skills and everything.

At which point if you do play around reflect what do you do if you want mostly physical damage? Decrease your damage? And even so, decrease it to the point to also take to account critical strikes?? My character for example cannot kill himself off, but his crits can.

The next solution is to have another weapon ready with an elemental skill or something, switch it for the one in a hundred enemies that kills you off with reflect, kill them off, then switch back and pretend it never happened. That's what I do at least.


It is as if the melee classes are in a way tailored to being nothing but brute tanks only, at which point to be safe and physical only you need to simply make your character un-killable and sit there killing off each enemy as slow as a turtle >.< (which is hardly satisfying and makes you feel weak).


Add the local parties were everyone is one shooting everything, and you might as well delete your "awesome" barbarian and roll a new class altogether.


This new skill seems to try and add some of that extra effectiveness to a melee warrior, and by the looks of it might work. I hope they add more skills in there for melee that actually makes the class feel worth playing with.

As for the damage reflection, I don't like it but whatever, they can leave it as it is, there are those that do like it and it would create too much of a fuss perhaps. Phys characters will just have to work around it unfortunately.

Does not look that interesting, but above all else this feels like another step on giving up on melee. Old melee skills are replaced with similar skills, with more range or AoE. This just makes it a clunky version of a caster, in which case the caster play-style is just better and more fluent.

People saying reflect needs a buff, while it is such an issue for most melee builds should perhaps revisited all those red gems and actually try and play the game with them.

While the preview video looks awesome, it feels pretty similar to Ground Slam, and even Earthquake are all pretty similar to one another.

Sure, there are small differences in impact zones, but the overall concept is fairly similar in theme (shatter the ground, dealing damage shockwave, etc), Execution (stand in place, attack, then move) and type (purely physical).

I'm not trying to knock the work that's gone into this, I especially like the visual; but when I read Sunder I immediately thought of an armor penetrator, or combination ability which increased enemy damage taken. I just hope to see some more unique skills come along as well and continue to do what PoE is known for: change things up.

Sunder + GMP = Ground sLAME + Lightning Strike ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

It's nice to see a pretty clear progression from Ground Slam -> Sunder -> Earthquake, and I'm glad to see pure phys skills showing up again.

All this salt over identical skills seem to neglect it's also a choice between Cone -> Ranged/Chain -> Delayed Blast, and it isn't Glacial Cascade because GC has several points of damage along it's path, where Sunder starts damaging only after it starts hitting the enemy.

This seems really effective against large pack size, but less effective against bosses that don't summon adds, but also gives the option to attack bosses and packs at range for a little extra defense in tough encounters. I love melee and was thinking of reviving my high AoE ranged GS Marauder, so I'll be trying this out for a little extra flavor.

Sunder ?

So it's.. literally Kinetic Blast for melee.

I'm actually really hyped for this. KB's one of those weird, hilarious skills that I never expected to be as fun or as devastating as it is. If Sunder is at least as powerful as KB, it's gonna WRECK big packs with a single shot.