Criticism and 5 Suggestions on the Economy/Vendor system post 0.9.5 playtesting
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Current vendor system does seem very bad. I got nothing on how to change it, but in its current implementation it is detrimental if anything.
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A lot of good feedback. Some interesting ideas. Several bad ideas. Many of the things you bring up have been discussed before at various points in development (list vs block inventory for example).
I agree with you that the current iteration of the sell system has quite a few problems. I don't think you realize all the implications the system has on other aspects of the game. Changing a small thing in selling can have significant secondary and tertiary effects that ripple through the rest of the game making balancing the system highly non-trivial. I don't think most people quite grasp the extent of it. There are a number of simultaneous goals that the selling system is intended to achieve. Obviously it manages some better than others but it's important to keep these in mind when you throw out criticisms or suggestions (a number of your own are completely counter to one or more of these goals). 1. It needs to be a rewarding experience. Essentially people need to feel like they're getting a fair price for what they sell and the reward should be meaningful. Making selling too easy can have a much more negative impact on the game in this regard than making it too difficult. In either case, there's a very fine line between the two that I don't think the current iteration has quite hit. There's a subset of this that I continually need to remind people of. People play this sort of game for many many different reasons and they enjoy very different aspects of the game. People tend to assume that just because they play arpgs for reason X then obviously everyone else must too and that's just a completely wrong assumption that a surprising number of people make. 2. It needs to be less rewarding economically than killing monsters. The core of the game is the killing and the emphasis needs to be kept there. It means that selling cannot give you a better effective 'drop rate' than basic killing. The intention is that it supplements your standard orb drops but doesn't dominate them. If you can get just as many orbs by selling useless crap then the system is completely broken. This also means that the system needs to account for abusive player behavior (like picking up and selling every possible item regardless of value). Other rpgs (Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Witcher) commonly accomplish this by capping the total currency a vendor has so you can never sell more than 1000 gold worth of items to a particular vendor for example. It's effective but I personally find it a little cheap because it also limits players that aren't playing abusively. 3. The system should add a new feature to the game. Implementing a boring selling system is wasted design space that could otherwise be used for something more creative and interesting. PoE could have stuck with the standard potion system that's been around for ages and few people would have really minded but that would be boring and a wasted opportunity to add something more to the game. The system should have some interesting aspects with real depth. For those people who really enjoy the economy and buying and selling it should be something that they can really sink their teeth into and explore. 4. The system must be optional. For every person that enjoys the economics and wants a fully featured selling system there's someone that never wants to talk to a vendor. Their benefit of playing the game like this shouldn't be diminished in the same way that people should be able to enjoy the game equally regardless of if they prefer to solo or party. This is really where the problem lies. How do you make a system that gives real economic value to the player without making that system mandatory for full enjoyment of the game. Similarly, how do you make it economically rewarding enough that people want to sell but not so much that abusive selling completely dilutes the economy. The core of OP's suggestion is that PoE should encourage abusive selling habits by players. OP's TL:DR is that PoE should make it as easy as possible for everyone to play the vending system as abusively as possible and then you wouldn't have to worry about trying to balance the system for people that sell more or less because you can just assume that everyone is selling everything. The problem with that is that such a system isn't fun or rewarding or interesting and would require exchange rates of 100+ white items per wisdom scroll to not completely break the economy. Such a system completely goes against all the goals I just listed that the system should achieve. Forum Sheriff
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I dont read whole wall fo text because im sick of reading wall of texts on these forums in each even most simply topics. But:
1. "It needs to be a rewarding experience." In current iteration with even more grindy shards, limited scrools in early game and "mathy" game with stashing and recipes IT IS NOT REWARDING AT ALL. IT IS TEDIOUS. 2. It needs to be less rewarding economically than killing monsters. Ooohhh... this is achieved in 110%. :) Its even less rewarding economically than no vendors at all in earlier patches. 3. "The system should add a new feature to the game." This is also achieved. It adds boredom and adds system that suits better ANNO 2070 economic game then Hack And Slash. 4. "The system must be optional." With current crappy orb drop rates and with current usefulness of crafting overall IT IS DEFINITELY NOT OPTIONAL. This is my feedback to current iteration of vendors system. For me this system in his current state changes Fast Paced HnS to something..... bleh. For me its game breaker and i even dont have eager to login now. Ill just wait for 0.9.6 i think - maybe GGG is wise and changes this stupid system. And i dont care at all that some of you doesnt agree and enjoy grinding 3456 rares to get two with the same name (1 ORB! YAY!) or going back to town/vendor 5 times with 35 crappy whites to get 7 scrools of Wisdom bacause then you may but ONE another crappy white form other vendor. Overall idea is preety good on paper, execution is TRAGIC so far. 90% of current "recipes" is a sad joke and the "pricing system" for items mods work basically in that way: "everything willgive you crappy alteration shard and surgeon flask and rarity will give you alchemy shard (YAY! 19 more to go!). Sorry but you must go back to drawing table GGG. Last edited by Kabraxis#1526 on Dec 27, 2011, 2:59:25 PM
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" This post have to be highlighted on this forum ! So people will maybe understand and stop whining... @Kabraxis : You're exaggerating, thus your post results in a complete bullshit, sorry. It's achieving all 4 goals in some way : 1. It's rewarding for me, I can sell stuff I would have thrown away before. I'm not losing time, I get more currency. 2. Definitely acheived, I stopped picking up everything pretty fast. 3. Checked. 4. We've played for months without it. The drop rate hasn't changed since 0.9.4 for most of the currency items. So it's optional. But people don't seem to realize it. Build of the week #2 : http://tinyurl.com/ce75gf4 Last edited by zriL#4590 on Dec 27, 2011, 3:26:36 PM
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I support tpapp157's position.
The vendor mechanism is a tool to allow those that 'pack rat' their prizes to receive a reward. It is not intended to monetize every single item that falls on the ground. It is a mini-game to allow those that enjoy the micromanagement aspect of inventory management to be rewarded for their time. Those that are interested in the core action of killing stuff are not forced to play the inventory management mini-game. Instead, the drop rate for items that are desired should be set sufficiently high that there is no need to play the inventory mini-game to progress. The balance is achieved by the amount of time it takes to play the mini-game. If the vendor system is too easy/simple/quick to use, it skews the benefit to the action player. If the vendor system is too rewarding, it skews the benefit to the hoarders. I think the inventory/vendor system is good for it's first iteration in game. I do agree some of the basic recipes like for wisdom scrolls should be a little less onerous. The uniqueness of how one obtains higher quality orbs is what appeals to me and feels about right. It is determined almost randomly (i.e. the rare name matching), which is how it should be, because it needs to mirror the rarity of the drop rate one gets from killing things. Those that complain that the vendor sale prices are too inflated need to realize that it cannot be set at a lower cost than the reward of selling back to vendors, or else (conceptually), one could make a profit just from vendor hopping. If vendor prices are set lower, then the items available also need to be lowered in value. That would obviate the vendor altogether, as nothing would then be worth shopping for. And it is shopping to check each level to see if there is something 'worth' the sale price. That's part of the fun! I saw a comment in another thread about how there seems to be an 'instant gratification generation' that has become more prevalent in the beta. I have to agree with that sentiment. If I wanted to play a linear action game without having to make choices or decisions and just want twitch gameplay, I'd go turn on my PS3. GGG: Please don't simplify/dumb down the game for the sake of people that don't like complexity. That would take away all the uniqueness of the game for me. "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio."
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They want you to buy extra stashes inventory space so they can roll on the $.
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I also support what Tpapp said especially this part:
" @Kabraxis - Instead of throwing a sissy fit and looking like a rash, foolish child, how 'bout you help come up with ideas to make it better. This is in no way a finished product, and GGG need's everyone's feedback on how to improve it. Not stupid comments that the system sucks, start over. "I doubt that. Purchaseable Inventory Space gives people a clear advantage in game. I hate each and every shameless MMO that sells bullshit like that. GGG has stated that they will not sell anything that creates an unfair gameplay advantage for those who pay vs those who don't. |
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" If that were in fact true, then they [GGG]would agree with the OP, not disagree. I personally enjoy the new system, however I do feel it is vastly underwhelming to the point of being almost non-useful. At first, I was taking everything to the venders to see what I could get for them, but I quickly realized I was blowing through Scrolls of Wisdom and getting nothing meaningful back in return. Is this a feature of the new system, or the sign of a broken system, I have no idea, but I do know that it diminishes the fun factor... gone. Like the OP, I now only pick up rares to sell to the venders, and whites because in this game whites are more powerful than blues with an Orb of Alchemy turning a white into a rare. I don't even bother picking up blues at all anymore. If this was what the creators had in mind with their new sell-based system, then they succeeded, but if they wanted it to be exciting to sell any item that may drop and encourage players to check out all the affixes on magical items, then they failed. |
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" That's not the same value. Consider if 12 players got 1/3 of the recipe. 1- If it requires all 3, there are now 0 alchemy orbs added to the economy. 2- If it gives you 1/3, there are now 4 alchemy orbs added to the economy. It's sets for a reason: to make it significantly more difficult. Your idea could work just fine, but it would have to give significantly lower rewards. " While i disagree with his paranoia that the intent of the sell vendors is to generate stash space sales, you are incorrect, in that Chris has several times stated increased stash space as a microtransaction target. Character archive: view-thread/963707 HC: 96 RIP SC: 95 97 96 100 95 96 97 98 95 97 Necro Settlers: WIP Last edited by unsane#5479 on Dec 27, 2011, 9:15:17 PM
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" I'm a member of the KISS generation. The game is about combat and character planning, so everything that takes away from this - like going back to town every 5 minutes if you want to maximise your currency gain (ie play to win) - should be eliminated. This does not mean less complexity, it means moving complexity to where we actually want more complexity: character building and gameplay. The Doom-Hexen-Quake generation of FPS games was very heavy on mazelike levels, key hunts and lots of levers while the actual enemies were dumb as lampposts. Recent games have moved the complexity from finding your way around the game to weapon selection and combat, as it should be. Median XL 2012 | Diablo 2 mod Adun Tori Laz. Last edited by BrotherLaz#0587 on Dec 27, 2011, 9:36:23 PM
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