Poison Summoner 2.1 Talisman HC

Slower projectiles seems worse than physical projectile attack damage in a 5l. Why you are using slower proj?

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SteKrz wrote:

Slower projectiles seems worse than physical projectile attack damage in a 5l. Why you are using slower proj?

Hmm, I'm using it too over PPAD.
Calculation gets a bit tricky, PPAD won't scale the converted cold damage, but will increase the original physical by more. But it's the physical part that inflicts poison and bleed so is more valuable

I'm not sure if generic projectile damage also double dips the posion? Would be worth in that case.

For me, as I'm also using added fire it makes it even trickier - I'm not sure what is best!

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SteKrz wrote:

Slower projectiles seems worse than physical projectile attack damage in a 5l. Why you are using slower proj?

Slower Projectile is easily better because it double dip for the poison also, but otherwise yes physical projectile attack damage is better.

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Carlovski wrote:

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SteKrz wrote:

Slower projectiles seems worse than physical projectile attack damage in a 5l. Why you are using slower proj?

Hmm, I'm using it too over PPAD.
Calculation gets a bit tricky, PPAD won't scale the converted cold damage, but will increase the original physical by more. But it's the physical part that inflicts poison and bleed so is more valuable

I'm not sure if generic projectile damage also double dips the posion? Would be worth in that case.

For me, as I'm also using added fire it makes it even trickier - I'm not sure what is best!

Yes Projectiles Damage, Minion Damage, and AOE Damage All double dip with the poison.

Cheers.
I'm even wondering if trying to slot in faster attacks for the spectres might be an option - the Zombies are the heavy hitters, we want the spectres to pick off stragglers, thin out trash mobs and inflict bleed as often as possible.
It's still that awkward to get extra green socket though!

Nice build, gotta give it a try.

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Carlovski wrote:

Cheers.
I'm even wondering if trying to slot in faster attacks for the spectres might be an option - the Zombies are the heavy hitters, we want the spectres to pick off stragglers, thin out trash mobs and inflict bleed as often as possible.
It's still that awkward to get extra green socket though!

Not in spectre imo because the bleeding of the knitted horrors doesnt stack, however i will probably replace multistrike with faster attack, because most boss that are dangerous move a little. If a boss moves while a zombie is stuck in the multistrike animation it does no damage. but if you want to change a gem i would probably use rapid decay as a 6L because it will scale the bleeding + the poison, but i do think slower proj is better.

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ViperBlackSkull wrote:

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Carlovski wrote:

Cheers.
I'm even wondering if trying to slot in faster attacks for the spectres might be an option - the Zombies are the heavy hitters, we want the spectres to pick off stragglers, thin out trash mobs and inflict bleed as often as possible.
It's still that awkward to get extra green socket though!

Not in spectre imo because the bleeding of the knitted horrors doesnt stack, however i will probably replace multistrike with faster attack, because most boss that are dangerous move a little. If a boss moves while a zombie is stuck in the multistrike animation it does no damage. but if you want to change a gem i would probably use rapid decay as a 6L because it will scale the bleeding + the poison, but i do think slower proj is better.

I usually heavily discourage faster attacks on minion builds. but there is an easy way to know if faster attacks is right for you.

for zombies
Q1 do you have flesh offering?
Q2 do you have vaal haste? if your answer was yes too only 1 faster attacks can work, if your answer was yes to both. do not use faster attacks. multi strike even if they hit air scales better.

for spectres the answer is never , faster attacks is never a good option because spectres use the idiotic mob ai which artificially controls how often they want too attack.

spectres dont act like you or me or even zombies they are pre programmed to fire.. move around a bit and fire or attack and move a round and attack. so you can make them attack as fast as you want but if they want to stop attacking and move for half a second nothing you do will stop them from doing that.

this is why echo is so good on spellcaster spectres . because it forces them to cast twice despite their idiot ai.

i did the math if i were to convert my current build to somthing similar to the one in this thread i could buff my zombies to hit for 82k each 31k would be pure physical dps, another 30k would be in poison and then the final 20k would still be from hatred.

dont knock hatred off so quickly it can still contribute a pretty decent chunk of dps. although if you do knock off hatred , you could pick up discipline and vitality and try for 7% life regen minions. that could be entertaining

im going to say this however.. blood lust is ehh. dont get me wrong its nice to get that HUGE ass multi on melee minions. but knitted horrors suck.. their damage is split between an initial hit and a bleed which makes scaling their damage hard to do and they are a huge pain to gather (even worse than revs)

you might as well slot in an empower instead. go zombie -> minion damage -> melee physical -> multi or faster attacks -> splash/empower and poison.

even a cheap 30c level 3 empower would add 20% base damage to the zombies and around 3000 extra life after minion life mods are taken into account.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

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ViperBlackSkull wrote:

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Carlovski wrote:

Cheers.
I'm even wondering if trying to slot in faster attacks for the spectres might be an option - the Zombies are the heavy hitters, we want the spectres to pick off stragglers, thin out trash mobs and inflict bleed as often as possible.
It's still that awkward to get extra green socket though!

Not in spectre imo because the bleeding of the knitted horrors doesnt stack, however i will probably replace multistrike with faster attack, because most boss that are dangerous move a little. If a boss moves while a zombie is stuck in the multistrike animation it does no damage. but if you want to change a gem i would probably use rapid decay as a 6L because it will scale the bleeding + the poison, but i do think slower proj is better.

I usually heavily discourage faster attacks on minion builds. but there is an easy way to know if faster attacks is right for you.

for zombies
Q1 do you have flesh offering?
Q2 do you have vaal haste? if your answer was yes too only 1 faster attacks can work, if your answer was yes to both. do not use faster attacks. multi strike even if they hit air scales better.

for spectres the answer is never , faster attacks is never a good option because spectres use the idiotic mob ai which artificially controls how often they want too attack.

spectres dont act like you or me or even zombies they are pre programmed to fire.. move around a bit and fire or attack and move a round and attack. so you can make them attack as fast as you want but if they want to stop attacking and move for half a second nothing you do will stop them from doing that.

this is why echo is so good on spellcaster spectres . because it forces them to cast twice despite their idiot ai.

i did the math if i were to convert my current build to somthing similar to the one in this thread i could buff my zombies to hit for 82k each 31k would be pure physical dps, another 30k would be in poison and then the final 20k would still be from hatred.

dont knock hatred off so quickly it can still contribute a pretty decent chunk of dps. although if you do knock off hatred , you could pick up discipline and vitality and try for 7% life regen minions. that could be entertaining

im going to say this however.. blood lust is ehh. dont get me wrong its nice to get that HUGE ass multi on melee minions. but knitted horrors suck.. their damage is split between an initial hit and a bleed which makes scaling their damage hard to do and they are a huge pain to gather (even worse than revs)

you might as well slot in an empower instead. go zombie -> minion damage -> melee physical -> multi or faster attacks -> splash/empower and poison.

even a cheap 30c level 3 empower would add 20% base damage to the zombies and around 3000 extra life after minion life mods are taken into account.

I dont have vaal haste because of the gem slot requirement, if i change my chest to a high es chest i might be able to drop vaal disc and switch to vaal haste we will see. i dont like needing spell echo on spectre because its annoying to remove the gem when you summon them.
The knitted horrors damage is better than what i had on my revenants spectre with dual midnight bargain because you are not limited to the number of target they hits, but i guess its just a different playstyle. I agree empower would be better but i dont have a levelled one now. 30c for empower level 3? I thought it was much higher i will check this out thanks. I find knitted horrors harder yes but better to gather because you get a clear of dried lake meanwhile you dont just stand still waiting for the cooldown of desecrate to come back. I dont think vitality is good honestly even for minions, if i wanted my minions to be more tanky i would use purity of elements because they are not even capped atm, or i would minions resistance jewels. Thank you for your input!

well the thing with revenants is you need a specific item to use them.

you need this:
this staff basically gives them their 4 lost projectiles back without making them fire in a nova.

as I think i said in another thread. 1 hand options for summoners suck. midnight especially because of the life reservation. The best summoner weapons in the game are properly rolled 2 handers.

I would suggest tolerating echo on spectres. yes its a pain in the ass, but you can always slot echo into desecrate while summoning spectres so that you have twice as many corpse piles to work with anyway.

The reason why revenents are better is because their ai enables them to shoot from off screen. horrors need to be near point blank with a target and rely on collateral damage (basically hitting packs behind the pack you are working on) to work well. they arent terrible. just well .. ok..

if you want real clear speed , a sire of shards rev with chain is very hard to beat as a summoner.

a corrupted level 3 empower can sell for 30 yes.

as for vitality and minion rests. use vitality only if you dont use hatred because this implies your base auras are poe and discipline. it doesnt take much more in terms of passives to get another 35% in which could be vitality. vitality on its own is a total joke.

But there are builds that can make it work. specifically ones that use : because you get 2.5% from the tree . 2 -2.5% from this staff and around 2.5% from vitality if you generosity it.

between those three sources and consecrate from a lucky guardian block.. you can see your minions regenerating over 1000 hp per second.

but again.. use only if you dont use hatred. i cannot stress that part enough.


the only good source of resistances is from purity of elements . minion resist on jewels are too low to be impactful. either you are capped. or you are not and the differences between the two are massive. so jewels giving a pittiful 7 - 8% here and there is insulting. you would need 5 or 6 of them to get the job done just get some aura effect and roll a poe which can give 40% all res if you are speced right.

we are at a point in the game where you can make minions durable enough to survive basically everything but uber reliably. so dont feel to pressured into leaving enough mana to resummon zombies on the fly. frankly if you are losing minions at a rate where you seriously need to replace them mid fight... you are in over your head.

I can link my gear if you wan some context for my build composition