[2.0] Dr. Strangelove's CoC AoE or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Discharge

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Doombug5000 wrote:

with Lightning Warp instead of Flame Dash I could beat your Whirling Blades easy.

If it were easy you would have already done it...

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Doombug5000 wrote:

Positioning... again) Yeah I get that about cyclone but my point is range gives you a choice, Cyclone doesn't give you a choice, you are better positioned because you HAVE to be or the skill doesn't work. With Barrage I can CHOOSE to be in that position or one that is further back, remember I play Hardcore I care about positioning from a safety and survivability standpoint, barrage gives me more options.

When you start talking about this kind of 'positioning for safety' stuff I wonder whether you can get better a better relative DPS:survivability ratio than mjolner.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

in between each attack group and this time is ALWAYS enough to re-generate full Power Charges meaning, in a prolonged fight with constant targets - this is any fight in which I am constantly attacking over a period of time, my Barrage always roll's its crit chance with max Power Charges active. YET ANOTHER reason Barrage kicks cyclones butt. Oh and this effectively gives my Barrage an 88.54% crit chance.

Cyclone rolls its crit at the beginning, it's exactly the same as barrage. Well I have 95% CC with 6 PCs and 100% accuracy. Anyways, you won't have 6-7 PCs on average against single target. 1-2 is much more likely. I attempted to calculate it here.

In general I wish you would spend less time writing long replies/making long videos and more time farming/leveling so you can't use the "i'm underleveled/undergeared excuse."

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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Doombug5000 wrote:

with Lightning Warp instead of Flame Dash I could beat your Whirling Blades easy.

If it were easy you would have already done it...

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Doombug5000 wrote:

Positioning... again) Yeah I get that about cyclone but my point is range gives you a choice, Cyclone doesn't give you a choice, you are better positioned because you HAVE to be or the skill doesn't work. With Barrage I can CHOOSE to be in that position or one that is further back, remember I play Hardcore I care about positioning from a safety and survivability standpoint, barrage gives me more options.

When you start talking about this kind of 'positioning for safety' stuff I wonder whether you can get better a better relative DPS:survivability ratio than mjolner.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

in between each attack group and this time is ALWAYS enough to re-generate full Power Charges meaning, in a prolonged fight with constant targets - this is any fight in which I am constantly attacking over a period of time, my Barrage always roll's its crit chance with max Power Charges active. YET ANOTHER reason Barrage kicks cyclones butt. Oh and this effectively gives my Barrage an 88.54% crit chance.

Cyclone rolls its crit at the beginning, it's exactly the same as barrage. Well I have 95% CC with 6 PCs and 100% accuracy. Anyways, you won't have 6-7 PCs on average against single target. 1-2 is much more likely. I attempted to calculate it here.

In general I wish you would spend less time writing long replies/making long videos and more time farming/leveling so you can't use the "i'm underleveled/undergeared excuse."

Seriously?

That's a little rude, especially as you are the one who is lacking knowledge:

You completely misunderstand both how barrage functions and the point of the 'support spell'.

From the description of Barrage: "After a short preparation time, you attack repeatedly with a ranged weapon. These attacks have a small randomized spread. Only works with Bows and Wands."

The important part is the 'Short preparation time', Firestorm sits over my targets generating power charges all the time and it stacks over that spot; each Firestorm lasts 2 seconds and I trigger at least 10 per second, each drops 10 fireballs a second. After 2 seconds I have a cycle of 20 Firestorms which is 200 balls per second, even if only 1/4 are crits that is 50 charges a second. The 'preparation time' of Barrage is about half its attack time so its .22 seconds for me - that's 11 power charges in between Barrages.

In reality more than 50% of the Firestorm Fireballs crit (against large enemies/groups) which is 22 Power Charges in between Barrages - oh and I'd only need 6 for max charges so go figure.

Ultimately this means that, against packs, I only need 5 active Firestorms at any one time to maintain max power charges for each Barrage Roll - this is roughly one Barrage (8 shots) worth of activations.

This is the entire point, this is the whole point, this is everything that matters about this build, this is why it works. If I didn't manage to communicate that within the pages of text I wrote up I am terribly sorry. There is a reason there are pages of text though. Please read before making yourself look dumb next time.

Oh yeah and I'd already started optomising for a speed run, in the spirit of fun, I'd already bought a second +2 mana on hit jewel (dropped some spell crit for it) and loaded in lightning warp instead of Flame Dash, I was just levelling my lightning warp and support gems (no quality) when I came here and read this incredibly ignorant and rude reply. Thanks for that...

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Doombug5000 wrote:

In reality more than 50% of the Firestorm Fireballs crit (against large enemies/groups) which is 22 Power Charges in between Barrages - oh and I'd only need 6 for max charges so go figure.

Ultimately this means that, against packs, I only need 5 active Firestorms at any one time to maintain max power charges for each Barrage Roll - this is roughly one Barrage (8 shots) worth of activations.

This is the entire point, this is the whole point, this is everything that matters about this build, this is why it works. If I didn't manage to communicate that within the pages of text I wrote up I am terribly sorry. There is a reason there are pages of text though. Please read before making yourself look dumb next time.

There is no reason for pages of text. You're doing a variation on a well known build. Just highlight why yours is different... If firestorm charge generation is the point of your build why is it not mentioned in the first sentence, or even first three paragraphs? I had to dig through your journey spoiler until I saw any mention of why firestorm over ball lightning.

How many of your firestorms actually hit single targets? Seems hard to calculate. Is it enough to make up for breaking EE? If I was doing this build I would passive like this (jewel by templar is for intuitive leap). And I'd go barrage-gmp-coc-discharge-freeze pulse-LL, with cold dmg on wand or ring.

Also insulting someone who is criticizing your build... meh... good luck.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

In general I wish you would spend less time writing long replies/making long videos and more time farming/leveling so you can't use the "i'm underleveled/undergeared excuse."

This is an insult, this is what you said.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

I do realise that whirling blades can still be faster movement but this build is more focused on being good at everything than it is about moving around maps quickly, that said with Lightning Warp instead of Flame Dash I could beat your Whirling Blades easy.

If this is where you think I insulted you then I am sorry, this was merely playfully competitive banter and was specifically regarding speed of movement, nothing else.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

This is the entire point, this is the whole point, this is everything that matters about this build, this is why it works. If I didn't manage to communicate that within the pages of text I wrote up I am terribly sorry. There is a reason there are pages of text though. Please read before making yourself look dumb next time.

If this is where you think I insulted you, you can't blame me for your choosing to not properly read the material I put out to be read by choice by whomever may want to and then looking a little silly as a result. Notice I didn't say you were dumb, I just asked you kindly to pay attention to prevent yourself looking dumb.

That being said it was a little mean of me and I apologise for that - you did already insult me however and your understanding of mechanics seems to be stuck on a set of rails that you can't get off, which is slightly frustrating. I believe these rails are born from you being a high end Standard league player who prefers to respec his existing characters rather than create a new one. This does give one a rather twisted perception of the game and of builds but it does make sense.

It also explains your 9 challenge completions in the one month league.

Moreover freeze pulse would generate a maximum of 1 power charge per activation per enemy hit, this doesn't work well against single targets. I realise that you lose EE but again, I make the point that clearing packs is not an issue, clearing tough single targets is what I want to be easier for this build.

Ball Lightning and Firestorm both hit a single target multiple times per activation and have a good duration. As such both work well, please also read the full justification of Barrage + Firestorm that I added to the beginning of my original post - I believe it will help clear up some misunderstandings you are having.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

There is no reason for pages of text. You're doing a variation on a well known build. Just highlight why yours is different... If firestorm charge generation is the point of your build why is it not mentioned in the first sentence, or even first three paragraphs? I had to dig through your journey spoiler until I saw any mention of why firestorm over ball lightning.

Here you also miss a major point of the build, if you read the original question posed it was for a build that could be levelled into with a starting hardcore character in a temporary league (i.e. from day 1) it would have to survive and not require a major respec at high levels and would not require any significant one time investment in gear but rather a gradual progression; hence the build is the entire process, hence the entire process is documented.

Again, sir, it is you who insult me.

Well then, this is a really good build guide, well written, too.

I will probably give it a shot soon.

Thanks for sharing.

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Rayzabladez wrote:

Well then, this is a really good build guide, well written, too.

I will probably give it a shot soon.

Thanks for sharing.

Thank you! and please do, if you have any questions let me know.

I have just one question, sir.

Can this build facetank merciless Malachai and if so, have you done it?


Thank you.

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Rayzabladez wrote:

I have just one question, sir.

Can this build facetank merciless Malachai and if so, have you done it?

Thank you.

Okay so last time I killed Merciless Malachai with this build I did avoid his teleport strikes (where he sinks into the ground) but other than that it was a facetank. I didn't even dodge his weird tendril attack, the life leech from the consistent damage output was enough to sustain me.

If you want I can make a video and post that up?

Edit: Just did some experimenting, swapping out my Life Leech gem for Immortal Call in my Cast on Critical Strike loop and replacing my Poacher's Mark curse with Warlord's Mark allows me to completely facetank Merciless Malachai as long as I keep my curse up.

Uploading Video to Youtube as I type - oh yeah and because its 1 month flashback it's also Onslaught Malachai (all league mods active). Video here: https://youtu.be/lJhs5JbZpw4 will also place it in the guide.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

I believe these rails are born from you being a high end Standard league player who prefers to respec his existing characters rather than create a new one. This does give one a rather twisted perception of the game and of builds but it does make sense.

It also explains your 9 challenge completions in the one month league.

Why do you keep bringing up this personal stuff? If you look at my gear it's all linked from Warbands. I didn't update it so that people wouldn't be able to use the "standard player, piles of cash" excuse. BTW I had 9 challenges completed after 2 days of playing, then I got bored because my experimental build failed and I didn't want to repeat what I already knew would work.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

Moreover freeze pulse would generate a maximum of 1 power charge per activation per enemy hit, this doesn't work well against single targets. I realise that you lose EE but again, I make the point that clearing packs is not an issue, clearing tough single targets is what I want to be easier for this build.

Freeze pulse at L20 does 715 base damage. Firestorm does 167 per ball. Discharge does 310 light per PC and 275 fire per EC. FP would do 715 + 310 + 275 = 1300. With EE that's at least 1300x1.5=1950 relative damage. To see the number of hits per target to match it with firestorm you just solve 1950=x*(167+310+275) or x=2.6. So you only need 2.6 firestorm hits per target to beat freeze pulse with EE. Seems doable. That's also assuming you're not EC capped, which isn't necessarily the case according to my calculations. If that is the case and you're getting at most 1 EC out of firestorm, then you will need more like 5-6 hits per single target to match freeze pulse+EE.

To actually compare, the easiest way to do it would probably be to use L1 gems fighting merciless voll or so. Last thing about firestorm, I believe in order to maximize #hits/single target you actually don't want increased AoE, because it spreads out the area of the storm as well as the base projectile AoE.

Again, if it wasn't clear before, I agree with a lot of what you're doing here, but not all your conclusions. Yes this build should have great single target, but I don't think it will have T1 clearspeed, because scolds+VMS isn't T1 clearspeed.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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Doombug5000 wrote:

I believe these rails are born from you being a high end Standard league player who prefers to respec his existing characters rather than create a new one. This does give one a rather twisted perception of the game and of builds but it does make sense.

It also explains your 9 challenge completions in the one month league.

Why do you keep bringing up this personal stuff? If you look at my gear it's all linked from Warbands. I didn't update it so that people wouldn't be able to use the "standard player, piles of cash" excuse. BTW I had 9 challenges completed after 2 days of playing, then I got bored because my experimental build failed and I didn't want to repeat what I already knew would work.

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Doombug5000 wrote:

Moreover freeze pulse would generate a maximum of 1 power charge per activation per enemy hit, this doesn't work well against single targets. I realise that you lose EE but again, I make the point that clearing packs is not an issue, clearing tough single targets is what I want to be easier for this build.

Freeze pulse at L20 does 715 base damage. Firestorm does 167 per ball. Discharge does 310 light per PC and 275 fire per EC. FP would do 715 + 310 + 275 = 1300. With EE that's at least 1300x1.5=1950 relative damage. To see the number of hits per target to match it with firestorm you just solve 1950=x*(167+310+275) or x=2.6. So you only need 2.6 firestorm hits per target to beat freeze pulse with EE. Seems doable. That's also assuming you're not EC capped, which isn't necessarily the case according to my calculations. If that is the case and you're getting at most 1 EC out of firestorm, then you will need more like 5-6 hits per single target to match freeze pulse+EE.

To actually compare, the easiest way to do it would probably be to use L1 gems fighting merciless voll or so. Last thing about firestorm, I believe in order to maximize #hits/single target you actually don't want increased AoE, because it spreads out the area of the storm as well as the base projectile AoE.

Again, if it wasn't clear before, I agree with a lot of what you're doing here, but not all your conclusions. Yes this build should have great single target, but I don't think it will have T1 clearspeed, because scolds+VMS isn't T1 clearspeed.

Yes, less increased AoE would mean more hits per second on a single target but it also decreases my Discharge AoE. There are many compromises and I assure you they are all thoroughly thought through but from a different perspective than you are used to. Remember the requirements, first character, hardcore temp league, no respec.

Greater Discharge AoE means I can safely attack from further away - it also means I can hit more with discharge at once which obviously is better clear. Clear is not everything though it's just one thing; I guess what I am trying to say is the balance of the build is very important to me and there is a balance of things I want and naturally as a result there have to be compromises.

Also according to the Firestorm DPS Calculator on the PoE Wiki each Firestorm I cast gets an average of 4.18 hits per cast on a single humanoid (radius 2) enemy. In a prolonged fight this is a little over 2 power charges per Firestorm against 1 ordinary humanoid target and the ratio of Firestorms to Discharges is ultimately 1:1 so thats a little over 2 power charges for each discharge (on average) for a single, ordinary humanoid. So this means worst case scenario I get 2 power charges from Firestorm + 2 endurance charges after they have been used (on average).

It should be remembered that a very good proportion of bosses and rares are bigger than radius 2, in these cases Firestorm is considerably better; Freezing Pulse, however, is not. The effect is then multiplied if there are many enemies as again, the max hits per use I can get out of Freezing Pulse per enemy is 1, with it's Critical Strike Chance (my gear) thats 0.426 - 0.606 power charges per Freezing Pulse wave for a total maximum possible (not even average) of 1.2 charges per Freezing Pulse per radius 2 enemy. Compare this to the average of over 4 charges for a radius 2 enemy I get from Firestorm - even with 40% increased AoE.

To further demonstrate, say a boss summons 2 minions of radius 2, all of a sudden Firestorm is generating on average 12 charges per activation, yet Freezing Pulse would be stuck with, in the best case scenario, 3.6 charges per activation... ouch.

I keep getting the feeling that if I could run ball lightning with slower proj it might out-perform Firestorm but sacrificing Life Leech means I can no longer do Elemental Reflect maps and I'd have to roll 4G 2B which is a nightmare.

Finally, T1 clear speed isn't my goal, I mean I have no idea how fast I could clear with level 100 and great gear. I have managed to greatly increase my clear speed simply by using Lightning Warp instead of Flame Dash however. I feel I should also mention at this point that I have played several variations of Cyclone and Cyclone CoC and Cyclone CoC Discharge. The first time I encountered Cyclone CoC discharge was over 1 and a half years ago, I watched a series of videos by a German guy in HC.

No variation of CoC I have ever played has felt as strong or as safe to play as this one and ultimately, that is what matters to me.

P.S. Last time I tried Cyclone I died to a Tora boss in Merciless act 4 - the one that puts down Vaal Molten Shell totems, dropped one right in front of me mid cyclone - nothing I could do.

EDIT: So, this discussion has been good, as a result I have gone through and fine-combed the math to make it far more precise and to cover the worst case scenario (a single radius 2 humanoid). Even then the numbers are extremely favourable - please re-read the now 'Why Firestorm and Why Barrage?' section for the full details.