Critical Weakness

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konfeta wrote:

Review the Elemental/Critical Weankess comparison thread. This skill needs no buffs, and is getting a well deserved nerf.

The question is if that nerf will be enough, because its very minor.

Lol it's not enough.
Both this and the elemental weakness curses are quite overpowered. We're talking about curses that can literally double your dps.
Having that much power loaded into a curse is just... bad. Especially if you play in groups lol... do you let the marauder use his vulnerability or warlord's mark curse and sacrifice half your dps? Hah, yea, that's going to happen.

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taekvideo wrote:

Both this and the elemental weakness curses are quite overpowered. We're talking about curses that can literally double your dps.

While I agree it's rather overpowered compared to vulnerability (or projectile weakness— which should be removed from the game), the skills —namely elemental weakness— do no increase DPS by 100% against most enemies. It will only increase it by 50% on most monsters, and up to 100% on [non-aura] resistant ones.
Critical weakness is also very difficult or impossible to get to 100% increased damage (without using legacy gear), and would be even harder with the change to it. You'd need 5% (or less) chance to crit, and 770% (or more) critical multiplier.

That said, I would certainly agree they are are overpowered compared to vulnerability.

However, if someone has 15% chance to crit, and 427% multiplier, they'll only get 56%/66% (depending on the present or the future) damage increase from critical weakness, which isn't any real benefit. That would kinda suck to invest quite a bit into getting good criticals but not get much or any benefit over elemental weakness.

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Xapti wrote:

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taekvideo wrote:

Both this and the elemental weakness curses are quite overpowered. We're talking about curses that can literally double your dps.

While I agree it's rather overpowered compared to vulnerability (or projectile weakness— which should be removed from the game), the skills —namely elemental weakness— do no increase DPS by 100% against most enemies. It will only increase it by 50% on most monsters, and up to 100% on [non-aura] resistant ones.
Critical weakness is also very difficult or impossible to get to 100% increased damage (without using legacy gear), and would be even harder with the change to it. You'd need 5% (or less) chance to crit, and 770% (or more) critical multiplier.

That said, I would certainly agree they are are overpowered compared to vulnerability.

However, if someone has 15% chance to crit, and 427% multiplier, they'll only get 56%/66% (depending on the present or the future) damage increase from critical weakness, which isn't any real benefit. That would kinda suck to invest quite a bit into getting good criticals but not get much or any benefit over elemental weakness.

I assume most mobs in chaos have some resistance which would push elemental weakness into the 60's/70's at least. Also the ignite/shock are further dps increases for fire/light builds. Would be doing triple damage on heavy resistance monsters. That information isn't public though so it's hard to say for sure lol.

As for crit weakness, I made a spreadsheet awhile ago... if you're an endgame witch with good crit chance/multiplier already (15% seems awfully low for an endgame witch...) then you'll easily be in the neighborhood of 100% increase in damage.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArO-yQpYvaqkdFdGem1GTjljV2Z4MHdzNk9rSVM2dWc

EDIT:
That spreadsheet was based on the numbers from the elemental vs critical thread, which said it was 9% and 100% at level 20. A different source told me it's 9% and 69% at level 20... which brings the numbers down a bit but my point still stands. This huge of a chunk of your dps from a curse is not a good thing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArO-yQpYvaqkdHJ2dTZXbTRJNDJxYVZKZWpyUFQ1WGc
(using 69% increased critical damage multiplier from the curse)

Also both of these are using the post-nerf formula. The current state actually has higher dps gains.

0.9.5 feedback below this post

When 0.9.5 rolled in, some of us scouting things out on the legacy server had an interesting discussion about ways to lessen the "impact" of the -80% multiplicative reduction on crit chance for higher level Multi Projectiles.

Critical Weakness was one of the options discussed. Because there is a flat 5% chance to crit for spells and abilities, and the increase from this curse is additive, it should still allow an opportunity for a fair amount of a players' crit multiplier to still have some effect.

But this depends on whether the multiplicative effect of Multi Projectiles also takes affect on monsters cursed with Critical Weakness. None of us really had a good answer as to whether it does or not, since there would seem to be some sort of re-calculation of crit chance taking place on impact. I'm surprised no one else has asked about it yet... So, does it? Are we even thinking about this in the right way?

Why would it have any effect?

The support gem affects only the skill's base chance. The curse, according to every time I saw Mark or someone else discuss it, adds a flat +% crit chance after all other calculations are said and done.

Random related note:

Let's take a 5% base chance spell (firebawl). +400% crit chance for a total of 25% base crit chance. With a level 17 curse, that means 34% crit chance. The penalty from a max level MP will drop the spell to 5% base crit chance or 14% with with the curse. Let's assume a base multiplier of 500%, which the curse (+66% on new mechanic) will turn into 764% multiplier.

The crit penalty of a maxed out gem will result in a 5% base chance for fireball. Let's compare:


Regular Fireball Crit Damage:
25% chance to do +400% damage, or +100% average damage.


Regular Fireball Crit Damage + Curse:
34% chance to do +644% damage, or +225% average damage.


MultiProj Fireball Crit Damage:
5% to do +400% damage, or +20% average damage.


MultiProj Fireball Crit Damage + Curse:
14% chance to do +664% damage, or +93% average damage.


Remember, with 5 fireball projectiles overlapping their splash and/or hitting a single target, MP results in a 3.5x damage multiplier.

So, in other words, if you are a high crit Witch and rely on Critical Weankess curse and want to use Multiple Projectiles, you need to hit a target with 3 fireballs to break even for single target damage. If you hit with 4 or 5, it will be an overall damage increase.

Did I screw any maths up here or does this seem right?

Heh, I wonder whenever it will be more worthwhile to use a +2 projectile support gem over a +4 projectile gem, then? I'd do more maths on that subject but I just ran out of cares.

I think you forgot the -30% total damage from Multiple Projectiles, as well.

My initial reaction was similar. But even if that is how it is intended to work, it may not actually be doing so.

It may just be a "thought experiment" for most projectile skills, but I think it may still have relevance to others.

Oh, I specifically included it. That's why I said 3 fireballs and not 2 to break even.

I think this gem should not be a blue one.

What can this skill do that Elemental Weakness does not do better?! Elemental weakness from the start gives 10% chance to have special effects activate which is more then 5% extra critical chance of this skill (and 30+ reduced resistances is more then what bonus to critical damage will give not to mention this 30 will give extra damage even when not getting criticals).

Only is useful for niche builds with wands and maybe some claw/dagger builds with new class in the future.

Even melee templars with staffs would prefer elemental weakness if going AoF or enfeeblement or vulnerability if going normal damage (or probably Warlord Mark).

Maybe you can put the critical stuff from enfeeblement into this skill to make it more useful (and put something else into enfeeblement to compensate)?!

A. It is already an Int/Dex hybrid.

B. Chaos Damage Gem.

C. It helps low base crit rate spells have a chance in a blue moon to actually crit.