Blood Rage

"

LadyAlekto wrote:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/878696/page/1/#p7505969

I got a question i cannot find a answer for and others can only speculate as well, do chaos and dot passive nodes increase the chaos damage debuff of blood rage?

no
But chaos res and inc buff effect, does work.

Thanks, so i can spec into dot and chaos nodes without having to fear that it will eat me alive :)

"

Warrax wrote:

I would like to question the design behind Frenzy charges being mostly an "on kill" mechanic. By mostly, I mean Bloodrage and 2 uniques that use this exact mechanic.

1. Why using that strict mechanic in the first place? it's tedious in group, it pretty much always run out of time unless you outdps everyone with AoE, it break the flow of combat when you have to recast Bloodrage again and again, it's very annoying to use in general while in groups. This is not a problem when soloing.

You have not mentioned one of the most crucial points: MF+culling. Unless you are the main magicfinder of a group, getting the last hit is a bad thing.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

1. Link increased duration for it. Recast every 27 seconds is quite easy.
3. That's what conduit is for.

1. Recasting is not as much of an issue as losing charges. Unfortunately increased duration won't help.
3. What?

blood rage is very op when used with CI and deaths oath, my templar CI, wrecks everything with that build, and it titally makes up for the lack of ES from my chest when everything dies around me in moments

the trick is to use a 1h mace and a shield that has a very high ES rating on it

and because ground slam is my main skill i link it into my deaths oath 6l.
^
ground slam > physical damage on full life > phyisical damage > life leech > multi strike > (either of these two) life on hit or mana leech

i get the key stone that allows you to use both life regen and leech on ES. i went with a high life regen with high ES nodes with shield for maximum results. now i am capped on ele res and such. immune to chaos damage, and have around 12k ES with a 20/20 discipline and 20/20 vitality for added regen.

my rainbowstride boots have linked..
^
cast when damage taken > enduring cry > molten shield > reduced mana gem

my mace is
^
blood rage, increaded durration, the 3rd one i am working on getting

on shield
^
immortal cry > increaded duration > reduced mana

my helm i have
^
warlords mark (for added life leech and endurance charge chance as well as more potion charges) > vitality > discipline > reduced mana

gloves
^
rejuvenation totem > reduced mana > leap slam > life on hit

a simple build i use with CI, and i never die in normal means.,.. desync on the other hand will get me stuck in walls with leap slam or just die in a empty room or kick me form server, etc...

(nodes) my nodes are pretty straight forward, life regen, leech life, ele res, 1h damage/mace damage and key stones for life leech and regen to work on ES... no vaal pack here
and the rest into CI and energy shield when using a shield and what not.


and i know alot of you might post a reply going
"durrrr use a high ES chest you noob"

which i will repsond, my build is centered around blood rage, deaths oath and ground slam. it is fun for me and i like it. and it never fails me.

hope this helps some people

"

Moonspeaker wrote:

"

Warrax wrote:

I would like to question the design behind Frenzy charges being mostly an "on kill" mechanic. By mostly, I mean Bloodrage and 2 uniques that use this exact mechanic.

1. Why using that strict mechanic in the first place? it's tedious in group, it pretty much always run out of time unless you outdps everyone with AoE, it break the flow of combat when you have to recast Bloodrage again and again, it's very annoying to use in general while in groups. This is not a problem when soloing.

You have not mentioned one of the most crucial points: MF+culling. Unless you are the main magicfinder of a group, getting the last hit is a bad thing.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

1. Link increased duration for it. Recast every 27 seconds is quite easy.
3. That's what conduit is for.

1. Recasting is not as much of an issue as losing charges. Unfortunately increased duration won't help.
3. What?

he means with 3: conduit will allow you to give your charges to the group. i use conduit for my build so i can give all my endurance/frenzy charges to the group.. it is massively op if i am in a grtoup with 2-4 summoners. and i will pop a doedre's flask for added charges.

but for solo blood rage is great when used with ground slam. kills things very quickly. and i can have 6 endurance/frenzy charges at a time so i am constantly being OP.

"

ninvus wrote:

"

Moonspeaker wrote:

"

Warrax wrote:

I would like to question the design behind Frenzy charges being mostly an "on kill" mechanic. By mostly, I mean Bloodrage and 2 uniques that use this exact mechanic.

1. Why using that strict mechanic in the first place? it's tedious in group, it pretty much always run out of time unless you outdps everyone with AoE, it break the flow of combat when you have to recast Bloodrage again and again, it's very annoying to use in general while in groups. This is not a problem when soloing.

You have not mentioned one of the most crucial points: MF+culling. Unless you are the main magicfinder of a group, getting the last hit is a bad thing.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

1. Link increased duration for it. Recast every 27 seconds is quite easy.
3. That's what conduit is for.

1. Recasting is not as much of an issue as losing charges. Unfortunately increased duration won't help.
3. What?

he means with 3: conduit will allow you to give your charges to the group. i use conduit for my build so i can give all my endurance/frenzy charges to the group.. it is massively op if i am in a grtoup with 2-4 summoners. and i will pop a doedre's flask for added charges.

but for solo blood rage is great when used with ground slam. kills things very quickly. and i can have 6 endurance/frenzy charges at a time so i am constantly being OP.

well never seemed they changed conduit to no longer work for minions... bummer

I feel like the increased attack speed modifier on low life should be switched to on full life, this low life modifier is buffing already overpowered low life builds. Just my 2 cents

It's probably a bit late in the current development cycle for this, but the complete silence by the community on this skill has prompted me into action. (When I came here I expected to find pages upon pages of feedback on how this skill fits into the current Low-life meta)

Firstly, let us examine which builds* (in a general sense) use Blood Rage, or benefit from its use.

*Builds that are considered remotely plausible and not just Full-Life Builds running auras on life for "teh lolz".

• Chaos Inoculation - Any build allocating this keystone
• Full-Life-Based Attacker - To use this skill these builds might rely solely on the leech it provides, and/or some combination of Chaos Resistance and Life Regeneration
• Full-Life-Based Caster - Probably quite niche, conceivably needs to rely on Chaos Resistance and Life Regeneration in order to support this skill
• Full-Life-Based Vaal Pact - These builds arguably need all the leech they can get, so they look to this skill
• "Low-life Attacker" - Any attacking build that reserves >65% of maximum life for various reasons
• Miscellaneous Vaal Pact - Builds using Vaal Pact that do not fit into any of the above categories. As above, they arguably need as much leech as possible

It would be nice to go into great detail on specific builds and circumstances where Blood Rage is implemented but I feel the above categories are sufficient for the feedback that is required at this stage.

Secondly, for the aforementioned categories let us partake in some analysis of the various levels of investment (including cost/opportunity cost) required, and the resultant benefits that are gained from the use of Blood Rage. Again, the consideration will be in general/baseline terms using a 20/20 Blood Rage gem.

Chaos Inoculation:

Cost/Investment Required:
None. The skill is 100% "free" to use. The cost is the cast time and any sockets you require for the skill and its supports, if any. There are no circumstances which make this skill harder to use. It should be noted that typically these builds have low access to life leech from the passive skill tree.

Benefits:

• 10% Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life
• 5% Increased Attack/Cast Speed per Frenzy Charge

Full-Life-Based Attacker/Caster:

Cost/Investment Required:
Most Full-Life builds will need to regenerate more life than Blood Rage degenerates in order to use this skill. Various levels of resistance to Chaos Damage will often be achieved to help mitigate the degeneration of Blood Rage. Both methods require a significant investment into specific Passive Skills and Itemization in order to viably and sustainably make use of this skill. There are several circumstances which make this skill substantially harder to use, requiring even greater investment in order to overcome. Almost all Life-Based builds will support Blood Rage with at least one support gem, so the socket cost is far from negligible.
Benefits:

• 10% Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life
• 5% Increased Attack/Cast Speed per Frenzy Charge
• Blood Rage effectively acts as an additional support gem for all physical attacks

Full-Life-Based Vaal Pact:

Cost/Investment Required:
Hitting the cap on Chaos Resistance would be an extremely high priority in these builds, to the extent that they would probably rely on Amethyst Flasks more than any other build in the game (I'm going to go out on a limb and say that no other build in existence makes effective use of these flasks, or literally depends on them). I would expect that mobility is also an extremely important facet of these builds. Both these considerations require uncompromising Itemization and Passive Skill allocation. I would expect these builds support Blood Rage with at least two or more support gems. It should be noted that typically these builds have some access to life leech from the passive tree.

Benefits:

• 10% Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life
• 5% Increased Attack/Cast Speed per Frenzy Charge
• An extremely high source of leech that cannot be disregarded in a Life-Based Vaal Pact build (Yes, this is technically listed twice, that's how important leech is to Vaal Pact builds)

Low-Life Attackers:

Cost/Investment Required:
Almost nothing. Skill is very nearly 100% "free" to use. Due to the mechanics of the skill, and having very high Energy Shield pool offset by a comparatively minuscule Life pool the degeneration these builds are subjected to is almost negligible. To further emphasize the lack of investment required lets ask ourselves what do these builds need to do in order to make effective use of this skill? Do they need any resistance to Chaos damage at all? Obviously it helps, but there are never any circumstances which make -60% Chaos Resistance strictly prohibitive. Do they need any regeneration mechanics? No, the degeneration is of such a low magnitude that it is largely ignored.
By a long margin the most significant costs associated with Blood Rage for Low-Life attacking builds are some physical damage output, and the number of sockets that will be required for various desirable support gems.

Benefits:

• 10% Physical Attack Damage Leeched as Life
• 5% Increased Attack/Cast Speed per Frenzy Charge
• 66% Increased Attack Speed on Low Life, as a baseline. Support Gems like Enhance and Blood Magic further scale this property

Miscellaneous Vaal Pact

Cost/Investment Required:
Refer to Chaos Inoculation and Full-Life-Based Vaal Pact sections where applicable. Chaos Inoculation Vaal Pact builds require an absolutely huge investment in passive points in order to maximise their leeching capacity (which is why they look to using Blood Rage in the first place).

Benefits:

• Again, refer to above sections where applicable

Conclusions:

For some builds using this skill we see a good trade-off between the level of investment required (how difficult it is to use/sustain Blood Rage) and the benefits it subsequently bestows upon you.
For other builds this skill could not be further out of line.

Vaal Pact:
Arguably all Vaal Pact builds need Blood Rage the more than any other build.
Has an overwhelmingly higher cost of use compared to all other builds I can think of/have listed. (I would even go so far as to say Blood Rage is a fundamental element in any Vaal Pact build, as it provides desperately needed leech and improved mobility)

Life Based Attackers:
These builds usually require a moderate level of life leech to be viable late-game.
Cost of use requires a high level of investment into Passive Point allocation, Itemization and potentially even chosen Aura's.

Chaos Inoculation:
Negligible cost of use/investment.
Provides a substantial boost to survivability and/or mobility for any investment.

Low-Life Attackers:
Provides insane boosts to damage output, leech, survivability, and mobility.
Fairly trivial cost of use.

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I hope I have been able to make it clear that some builds receive massively disproportionate benefits when you consider what level of investment is required for them to incorporate this skill into their build.

I think balancing this skill to have an appropriate Cost/Benefit trade-off is vital to the long-term health of Path of Exile.

If I have failed to articulate myself clearly, or made any mistakes please let me know. Or if you think I am full of shit and talking out of my ass I welcome any constructive conversation on the matter.

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Suggestion(s):

I think everything about this Skill can "fixed" in one stroke. Make its functionality almost identical to that of Righteous Fire.
If Blood Rage applies degeneration based on both Life and Energy Shield values (exactly like Righteous Fire) we will see Low Life builds having to invest appropriately in order to use this Skill. (Since they benefit the most, they should have to invest the most. The choice to use Blood Rage, or not, should be a meaningful one. In the current state of the game this Skill is simply a "WIN MORE" button)
Chaos Inoculation still remain 100% immune so there is literally no change.
Life Based Builds will be impacted negligibly.

This is about as win-win as it gets. BALANCE. Not GGG overzealous nerf-hammer of doom, but actual impactful meaningful balance.

"

Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

Suggestion(s):

I think everything about this Skill can "fixed" in one stroke. Make its functionality almost identical to that of Righteous Fire.
If Blood Rage applies degeneration based on both Life and Energy Shield values (exactly like Righteous Fire) we will see Low Life builds having to invest appropriately in order to use this Skill. (Since they benefit the most, they should have to invest the most. The choice to use Blood Rage, or not, should be a meaningful one. In the current state of the game this Skill is simply a "WIN MORE" button)
Chaos Inoculation still remain 100% immune so there is literally no change.
Life Based Builds will be impacted negligibly.

This is about as win-win as it gets. BALANCE. Not GGG overzealous nerf-hammer of doom, but actual impactful meaningful balance.

It won't significantly change the low life use case for builds that benefit the most form the skill (phys weapon attackers), and the effects on other low-life builds using it will be questionable at best.

Why?

Because low life builds don't have to have a significant amount of "base" life to function because Shav's exists.