State of the Beta - Post #6

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KorgothBG wrote:

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ArcaneX wrote:

Noone cares about "perm-League", its boring :)

Because whatever you like applies to all of the player base ...

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ArcaneX wrote:

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grepman wrote:

this just in: GGG doesnt care about *perma-league* people

Noone cares about "perm-League", its boring :)

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items

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Zed_ wrote:

It seems clear to me that the development focus is on the challenge leagues. When I see all these complaints about obvious Standard-only issues I feel like I'm missing something. It's nice to have this one game that doesn't tiptoe around the casual player all the time who takes 2 years to complete a character.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos