New Skill Development - Vigilant Strike

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Weißenberg wrote:

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Nurvus wrote:

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Weißenberg wrote:

I beg your pardon? I'd rather say I suggest to even things out. You can't eat the cookie and have the cookie. If you're by your own choice playing evasion you shouldn't be able to get any bonus that is [or should be] logically related to strength and armor. Not to mention that evasion already has its own fair share of defensive keystones (Acrobatics, Phase Acrobatics, Ondar's Guile) whereas armor doesn't have any additional defensive buff except of recently added Soul of Steel. I'm basically talking about taking a consequent approach towards the game mechanics, if Acrobatics don't mesh up well with armor for very obvious reasons then Fortfiy shouldn't fully benefit evasion.

Math would like to say hello.

Player A with 40% damage reduction from armour and Player B with 40% Evasion will benefit exactly the same from Fortify.

And suddenly your whole long winded point is moot.

Please, can you point out where exactly did I say that it won't? Because I'm fairly sure that I said evasion shouldn't fully benefit from Fortify, which as you alrady noticed is an opinion. Because that's what a forum is for, to share opinions. Not necessarily to agree on every matter discussed. It's against any form of logical thinking to believe that evasion based characters should fully benefit from a feature that is contrary to the way evasion works. If we reverse positions for a while, how would you react if I said armor based characters should fully benefit from Acrobatics and shouldn't be an object to any nerf resulting from taking the keystone? Can you imagine a 300 lbs Marauder with a 100 lbs armor on him performing all kind of fancy moves taken straight from a ballet lesson? Because you see, contrary to what you might believe in, the mechanics of armor are logic-based. And all I'm trying to do here is to urge GGG to continue following their logical approach. Because making evasion based characters benefit from Fortify without being limited in any way is nothing else than a very special way of saying "fuck logic".

Yes, I can imagine a 300 pound marauder with 100 pounds of armor moving like that. Why? Because the game is a fantasy power trip simulation. It is meant to break beyond our notions of physics and reality in multiple ways so that we can feel the rush of something we'd never actually be able to experience even if it is only through the limits of a game.

And it's not a logic thing. It's a physics thing. Logic is the study and use of valid reasoning. Is it reasonable for a hulking brute in heavy armor to be so agile and evade a lot of blows? In the world of Wraeclast, yes, because that's how the physics and reality of that world can and might indeed work. Is it logical for that tiny little witch to do a huge hulk stomp and jump 20 feet away from a standing position? Considering it exists in the game it certainly seems logical to conclude it is possible.

Perhaps you're more worried about immersion? If so, I'm curious why you're playing an isometric ARPG (or at least seem so passionate about it) instead of a first person RPG like Skyrim. Or perhaps a first person shooter would be more to your liking if you care so much about more realistic physics simulation?

The mechanics of armor are meant to be intuitive enough that someone can immediately pick up that it reduces physical damage taken. The move speed penalty for heavier armor is mostly just a sacred cow or trope of role-playing games at this point than an actual balance consideration as far as PoE and many, many others go. At first it was included in games because "people in heavy armor can't move as fast like in real life" but many players and developers over the years have found it's often just an annoyance that detracts more from the game than the flavor or familiarity could add to it.

The fact that one is playing this game ought to show they've tossed various preconceived notions of how "reality" works out the window. The game is a different reality than the one we're living in and it's meant to tell interesting stories while also letting us as players feel powerful and awesome in the end. Sure, some sort of feeling like that could be achieved by sticking much closer to the physics we're familiar with, but because the game tosses that aside in many ways it can give a very different experience not otherwise possible if it had been so grounded and held back in our own reality. It has enough for us to identify with and feel secure in (like we can run around on the ground and smack things dead with big sticks) but there are plenty of differences that make the world unique and give similarly unique ways to have fun.

So instead of "fuck logic" as you put it with the comment, it's more about "fuck the hindrances of the real world, this character is going to be powerful and overcome the monsters of Wraeclast."

I am of the opinion that evasion builds and armor builds ought to benefit as equally as they can from Fortify because it will hopefully open up more play options and thus be more fun to play. Having fun is one of the primary points of the game after all.

Sorry, but this skill sounds sick. I'm pretty sure it'll be way too powerful.

I strongly suggest that you should focus on balancing the existing ones, some need serious attention, instead of introducing tons of new skills (which even render some old skills redundant, so I'm not really sure what's the gain here...).

On the one hand I can understand the worries that Vigilant Strike might be overpowered:

- Build in Resolute Technique
- grants Fortify Effect (base duration will probably be something like 3 seconds)
- High Damage (165%) which will be spammable with Endurance Charge on Melee Stun + some passive tree investments


On the other hand:

- Heavy Strike has 150% damage effectiveness + build in Knock Back + Build in Stun threshold reduction + it has no cooldown.

150% is not a lot less than 165%, so there has always been a very high damage melee skill which did not turn out to be overpowered (although there have been some nice stun builds using it).

So with the new patch you could either use Vigilant Strike + Endurance Charges to keep up Fortify or you just add the Fortify support gem to Heavy Strike or any other powerful Melee skill. Both versions use up one gem slot to make "things" work.

However I definitely agree that some old skills need to be reworked/rebalanced.

How about "Skill Effect Duration"?

Fortify, Warcrys, Immortal Call, Molten Shell, Vaal Molten Shell and Vaal Immortal Call.

There are already builds out there using 20sec Vaal Immortal Call.

Could lead to some nice OP melee builds.

yeah, will be too powerful :( i could just take some enormous 2h weapon and have 100% accuracy with zero dex investment, while grabbing a bunch of crit nodes. i mean thats something other melee builds wont be able to do! maybe remove the endurance charge bypassing? or you will see quite a lot of vigilant strike builds in the new leagues :p

Should really make the buff of this skill a passive. Right now you are now forcing every melee build to use this skill.

If you make it a passive it will allow for more build diversity.

i don't understand why GGG is so focused on skill buffs and not passive buffs. Your first though should have been for this Buff to be a passive.

Get ready for every melee build to be 100% the same.

people underestimate just how bad having knock-back on a skill like heavy strike is. its effective damage is far less than what its tool tip says it is.


as for this skill.... its fine, you could link it with charge on stun... but then you just wasted a damage gem slot for what? at that point just go back to static strike or molten strike or indeed any other melee skill if you are willing to shoot your dps in the foot that readily.

the buff side is a non issue as well, just stick a fortify gem on vengeance. by the very definition of buff, it will have a duration so it is not like you would need to proc it all the time like this new gem would.

And since when have we had an attack skill that wasn't better with crit anyway?

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Weißenberg wrote:

Please, can you point out where exactly did I say that it won't? Because I'm fairly sure that I said evasion shouldn't fully benefit from Fortify, which as you alrady noticed is an opinion. Because that's what a forum is for, to share opinions. Not necessarily to agree on every matter discussed. It's against any form of logical thinking to believe that evasion based characters should fully benefit from a feature that is contrary to the way evasion works. If we reverse positions for a while, how would you react if I said armor based characters should fully benefit from Acrobatics and shouldn't be an object to any nerf resulting from taking the keystone? Can you imagine a 300 lbs Marauder with a 100 lbs armor on him performing all kind of fancy moves taken straight from a ballet lesson? Because you see, contrary to what you might believe in, the mechanics of armor are logic-based. And all I'm trying to do here is to urge GGG to continue following their logical approach. Because making evasion based characters benefit from Fortify without being limited in any way is nothing else than a very special way of saying "fuck logic".

You're actually saying "fuck logic".
You have some problem against Evasion and are venting it in the WRONG place.
If Evasion is better than Armour, you're not going to fix it with a freaking skill...

Furthermore, an evasion character gets hit less often. But when he does get hit, he gets hit for a lot.
So a 2000 hit against 30% Armour mitigation = 1400 damage.
That 2000 hit against 30% Evasion = hitting 70% of the time but dealing the full 2000 damage, which assuming you survive the hit means an average of 1400 damage.

Fortify reduces 25% damage and affects both equally.
It will affect the 1400 damage that Armour mitigated, reducing it to 1050.
It will affect the 2000 hit against Evasion, reducing it to 1500, which then will hit 70% of the time, dealing on average 1050 damage.

As for "realism", Vigilant Strike is a buff.
It's not your skin that suddenly became rock.
It's not your dick that wraps around your torso like a Pelvic Coil.
It's a freaking buff.

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Orbitalx wrote:

They should just put a buff on melee skills in the game. After you cast cleave or sweep or dual strike(and so on) you get 1 second of 20% real damage reduction. Can be physical only. This will mean that only people actually using these melee only skills will get the benefit since they are the only ones actually in melee range.

Other games have standard damage reduction for melee classes. Since this game doesn't really have those, assign it to melee only skills.

quoting myself from 2013. I don't think making this a special skill is the right way to go. Just put the effect on every melee skill.

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roddyriot wrote:

If melee is weak, compared to ranged, than give melee a buff that has no opportunity cost. Add the fortify buff to all melee-only skills. Support Gems & Skills that grant fortify have an opportunity cost, another gem & the time it takes to use a skill. This is a whiff GGG, sorry.