Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

"

b15h09 wrote:

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

If a skill gem is horrendously over or under tuned balance wise, is it COMPROMISING the integrity of the game to fix that? Or is it actually putting things where they were supposed to be in the first place, aka FIXING the integrity of the game?

You're compromising the integrity of the competition at hand for the sake of the long term integrity of the game. The temp league's integrity has been wholly fuckered. Shit should be handled between leagues. Of course, the 'integrity of competition' in this game has a storied history of being fuckered... so I guess that fuckering competition is the true 'integrity of the game'.

Nice deflection

"

Legatus1982 wrote:

Nice deflection

Not so much a deflection, as a big fat LOL at PoE competitive integrity. Maphacks that were in use since the first month of OB and only addressed a few weeks ago? First lvl 100 boosted there through RMT helpers? Comon... there is no integrity. To view it as such is deluded.

"

b15h09 wrote:

there is no integrity. To view it as such is deluded.

To assume 100% integrity is deluded.
To assume 0% integrity is equally deluded.

Some players with level 100 or race titles have earned it. Others haven't. With most we'll never know for sure. But a little column A, a little column B.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

b15h09 wrote:

there is no integrity. To view it as such is deluded.

To assume 100% integrity is deluded.
To assume 0% integrity is equally deluded.

Some players with level 100 or race titles have earned it. Others haven't. With most we'll never know for sure. But a little column A, a little column B.

I agree somewhat. There are some players with absolute integrity. There are other players with none. I don't believe the game itself has, or has ever had, much integrity at all, though. It's just not a competitive game, even though it tries to wear some fake veneer that it is. Used to play iron man Diablo. Our group of 3 would compete against other groups of three. That certainly didn't make Diablo have competitive integrity, though.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

To assume 100% integrity is deluded.
To assume 0% integrity is equally deluded.

Some players with level 100 or race titles have earned it. Others haven't. With most we'll never know for sure. But a little column A, a little column B.

I don't think that's how it works, if one player lacks integrity it's globally lost, that's one thing most religions agree on :)

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

b15h09 wrote:

there is no integrity. To view it as such is deluded.

To assume 100% integrity is deluded.
To assume 0% integrity is equally deluded.

Some players with level 100 or race titles have earned it. Others haven't. With most we'll never know for sure. But a little column A, a little column B.

I believe this to be true, which is why I think using competition as the fundamental reason for balance is just as deluded, yet it is a common arguing point in every nerf/balance thread presented.

I have no objection to the ma adjustment, nor any other adjustment in all honesty. Game balance is like world peace, it's definatly worth striving for, but you are a fool if you think it will ever be achieved. I was simply pointing out that in principle it is wrong to administer the change during an event that is considered a race.

does it really matter in the big picture? na, it's like returning to the store because you found they gave you 2c less change then you had coming. The 2c isn't the reason you go back for your change, it's the principle.

If there is no competitive focus, then there is little purpose to any balance changes at all. If there is no objective measure to any part of this game, then there is no purpose to having a feedback forum.

Just because perfect balance is unattainable doesn't mean that they shouldn't try.
Just because true competition is unattainable doesn't mean that they shouldn't try.

They can always do better.

---

To bring this conversation back to reality, what we are talking about is GGG's focus (both promised, realized, and planned for the future). The OP was talking about a failure to realize their promises. Elsewhere we are talking about how they plan to get from where they are now to their future plans.

Ultimately, it's up to GGG to decide which players they want to cater to. Just because you can play completely non-competitively in this game doesn't mean that GGG cares about that style of play, nor that they're going to add things to benefit that. It's entirely collateral to them that people can play in standard, or not in races, or not trying to complete challenges.

When push comes to shove, they have to make exclusionary decisions that can't benefit all camps simultaneously, and it's only those decisions that we're interested in.

For instance, when they added PA, they changed their targeted camp away from who they catered to in the past. When they make something easier, they're going to lose some players and they're going to gain others.

They made it abundantly clear early on that they were not purely population-driven; that they were okay with targeting a niche market segment in the hopes that that smaller group would be more rewarded and would stick around and donate large sums of money.

Is that still the case? Who fucking knows if GGG isn't talking. We need them here, and yet 30+ pages later, silence still.

Okay, I've thought.

Right now, you can expect someone to "win" a ladder in about 6 weeks. That's the amount of time it took Havoc to reach level 100 in Bloodlines.

But that number is far, far too low. Getting 100 should take longer. Much longer.

That said, there isn't a reasonable amount of time to wait. As a dev, you can't just sit back for 3-4 months while imba is happening. You're going to have to act sooner. Mid-league balance is going to happen.

Mid-race balance, obviously, never needs to.

Even then, mid- league balance should be avoided. Like Legacy items, it should be viewed as a solution of last resort. For less pressing or particularly wide-effecting changes, delaying until league end should be seriously considered. Mid-league nerfs should be for niche cases which accidentally got out of hand, normally involving brand-new content.

I feel GGG has been a little reckless with this. If something is format-breaking, especially with unintended behavior, then yeah, I understand. But if it's just a balance tweak, then it should wait.

To use recent examples: I understand the Mirror Arrow (with LL Instability) nerf because that probably took GGG completely by surprise and was doing some degenerate things. But tweaking Flameblast down 20% mid-league - as much as the skill indeed deserves it eventually - wasn't a good call, because it's an established skill and a small nerf so clearly GGG wasn't stopping anything truly degenerate (in their eyes, anyway). Not saying the nerf itself was bad, just its timing.

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

b15h09 wrote:

there is no integrity. To view it as such is deluded.

To assume 100% integrity is deluded.
To assume 0% integrity is equally deluded.

Some players with level 100 or race titles have earned it. Others haven't. With most we'll never know for sure. But a little column A, a little column B.

I believe this to be true, which is why I think using competition as the fundamental reason for balance is just as deluded, yet it is a common arguing point in every nerf/balance thread presented.

I have no objection to the ma adjustment, nor any other adjustment in all honesty. Game balance is like world peace, it's definatly worth striving for, but you are a fool if you think it will ever be achieved. I was simply pointing out that in principle it is wrong to administer the change during an event that is considered a race.

does it really matter in the big picture? na, it's like returning to the store because you found they gave you 2c less change then you had coming. The 2c isn't the reason you go back for your change, it's the principle.

In re: bolded: trading is an inherently competitive act; your PvE loot is economy; loot is derived from clear efficiency; your PvE performance is competition. (clarification: whether you (vague) acknowledge it or not)

"

pneuma wrote:

Is that still the case? Who fucking knows if GGG isn't talking. We need them here, and yet 30+ pages later, silence still.

Pffft. Does this look like reddit or something? This forum is a courtesy for the players, a place for them to get their items indexed, to let of some steam, and a place to post patch notes. This is NOT a place for dev interaction, and hasn't been for a long time.

I do appreciate the couple devs who will occasionally try to shed some light on issues. Usually, it just further muddies the water because they're not the one making the actual decisions, but it's still nice.